OK
 

commerce 100/200

Villain is Freddy. He is very LAG and very good. He knows me a bit. He has been playing pretty wildly preflop. Postflop he is excellent and has been mostly in line.

He opens utg+1, I 3bet next in with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], folds back to Freddy and he calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

check, i bet, raise, i call.

turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

bet, I call.

river: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]


bet, i raise, he 3bets, i......

Re: OK
 

i think you just call. if he is very good than he wont have any problem folding the K to a 4 bet. i dont think any hand calls your raise. i think you see a fold or a raise and a raise almost has to be the nuts..

Re: OK
 

and im never folding...

Re: OK
 

4bet and then 6bet and fold to the 7th.

Re: OK
 

Clear fold. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think you just call. if he is very good than he wont have any problem folding the K to a 4 bet. i dont think any hand calls your raise. i think you see a fold or a raise and a raise almost has to be the nuts..

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is, Bob is dead wrong about Freddy.

If it's the same one, I played that game for a solid week about a month ago and there was a Freddy in it every day. Super nice guy, and maybe not the worst post-flop player, but definitely nowhere near good.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think you just call. if he is very good than he wont have any problem folding the K to a 4 bet. i dont think any hand calls your raise. i think you see a fold or a raise and a raise almost has to be the nuts..

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is, Bob is dead wrong about Freddy.

If it's the same one, I played that game for a solid week about a month ago and there was a Freddy in it every day. Super nice guy, and maybe not the worst post-flop player, but definitely nowhere near good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Freddy the twin?

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
4bet and then 6bet and fold to the 7th.

[/ QUOTE ]

you must know 'freddy' better than you know yourself to take this line...

Re: OK
 

Oooops! Not the same one! Sorry... I was thinking of the heavy set guy with an accent, like in his 50s. I also remember someone who was supposed to be someone's twin and yeah... He played pretty good post-flop. So that changes everything. I apologize for the sarcasm.

Re: OK
 

i was in this situation at commerce when i was there, i just called thinking the person wasnt dumb enough to
a. pay me off with a worse hand if i 4 bet or
b. three bet an even semi real hand...

of course i just called, he showed the second nut flush and all teh good players at the table berated me

Re: OK
 

Are players so militant in optimum strategy that they don't pay for infomation when getting 15-1? Even if he has the King he will call another bet unless you know him to be a master of this laydown. I can't think of anything other than to raise...note you hand is rather disguised....

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are players so militant in optimum strategy that they don't pay for infomation when getting 15-1? Even if he has the King he will call another bet unless you know him to be a master of this laydown. I can't think of anything other than to raise...note you hand is rather disguised....

[/ QUOTE ]

my hand is disgusied???? look at the board.

Re: OK
 

This is going to sound v. amateur if you don't catch my thinking...I am talking about your action pre and post flop (although I might admit I am thinking a little in nl terms) - of course river time you are raising on a flushing board but I think a 4 bet can be not believed to be the ace hearts enough to counterbalance the chance he has a straight flush...

I know you don't post results orientated stuff but I am convinced a 4 bet is mandatory - I would like to hear others' thoughts...

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4bet and then 6bet and fold to the 7th.

[/ QUOTE ]

you must know 'freddy' better than you know yourself to take this line...

[/ QUOTE ]
he was making a funny

Re: OK
 

Is this thread real?
i feel like i'm in the twilight zone.
we have the 2nd nuts behind 3h5h right?

people suck at poker. the guy will call with K, hi flush at least some % of the time ... so raise

Re: OK
 

definitely just call. any other play would clearly be wrong.

Re: OK
 

I haven't played with Freddy in awhile, but I agree with your assessment of his play, unless he is badly stuck.

Assuming he's not steaming, it's close whether to just call or to hit it one more time and then call if reraised. How spunky do you feel? I'd probably just call unless you've been battling a lot recently, in which case my decision probably swings towards popping him back one time.

This may seem weak to many, but there is nothing on the board, and the action only started getting heavy on the end. This almost always means what it should in my experience.

Re: OK
 

Im sooo confused

Edit-I raise and call a rr...but evidently I suck

Re: OK
 

well, with his 3 bet on the river i begin to suspect Fred has the straight flush, but i would give it one more raise then call...his 3 bet could be motivated by him suspecting you of a bluff (he may have heard of Clarkmeister)...

Re: OK
 

Does he really open raise from EP w/5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

I 4 bet then call. I think he has KQ with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does he really open raise from EP w/5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?



[/ QUOTE ]

its possible--i am not the first to say this but: "the rich are different"; i agree opening UTG with such a hand seems really wierd, yet...

Re: OK
 

I just call. He'l likely fold without the straight flush when you 4-bet. By calling, you can then show your ace, even if beat, and they'll all think what a wimp you are, and you can use that later on.

Re: OK
 

The answer is call and it's not close, assuming that villain is a "excellent" post-flop player as OP indicates. Incidentally, this is almost the exact situation Barry Tanenbaum described in a CP column called dangerous river raises way back when. I remember this article so well, because I was the student who submitted the hand!

Incidentally, BT's conclusion (after arguing you should call-down with the A-high flush) was:

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, many of your opponents will make fun of you when you win the pot by simply showing down the nut flush, but you will still have made the proper play and do not need to educate them. Be glad they have the wrong impression of you at the poker table.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: OK
 

what is he expecting you to call the river 3bet with?

Re: OK
 

I don't know this guy at all or anything but as far as "what is he expecting you to call the river 3bet with" i would be more inclined to wonder if he thinks he can get you to fold out a decent [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (i.e. bob is raise/folding to a 3-bet)

which is why i call.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does he really open raise from EP w/5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

I 4 bet then call. I think he has KQ with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

i've opened in EP with 53s a lot more times than i've bet/3bet a K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in this kind of spot.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does he really open raise from EP w/5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

I 4 bet then call. I think he has KQ with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

i've opened in EP with 53s a lot more times than i've bet/3bet a K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in this kind of spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? I've bet/3-bet with Kh here against quite a few online lags. Sometimes even against tags who's style I had misinterpreted.

This hand is really read-dependent and i don't know villain so I have nothing useful to add.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does he really open raise from EP w/5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

I 4 bet then call. I think he has KQ with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

i've opened in EP with 53s a lot more times than i've bet/3bet a K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in this kind of spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? I've bet/3-bet with Kh here against quite a few online lags.

[/ QUOTE ]

did you call a 4bet?

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] are you raising the river?

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] are you raising the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

i really don't know.

Re: OK
 

Call, not close. Freddy will either be folding or 5 betting when you 4 bet.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] are you raising the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

i really don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]


Or at least does Freddy expect you to raise the Q - 9 of hearts? If he does I think you have a pretty straight forward 4 bet.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does he really open raise from EP w/5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

I 4 bet then call. I think he has KQ with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

i've opened in EP with 53s a lot more times than i've bet/3bet a K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in this kind of spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

really? I've bet/3-bet with Kh here against quite a few online lags.

[/ QUOTE ]

did you call a 4bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

probably [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img], but you still make a good point.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] are you raising the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

i really don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]


Or at least does Freddy expect you to raise the Q - 9 of hearts? If he does I think you have a pretty straight forward 4 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

why are you 4betting when he can likely never call? the guy is a LAG, not a retard.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] are you raising the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

i really don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]


Or at least does Freddy expect you to raise the Q - 9 of hearts? If he does I think you have a pretty straight forward 4 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

why are you 4betting when he can likely never call? the guy is a LAG, not a retard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm coming from an high limit online background where people aren't folding the K here. If you believe that he will fold the K then it's an easy call, if he's not folding then it's an easy 3 bet plain and simple. Only you can make that decision based on dynamics of the game or what not. It's a pretty straight forward situation really. My original point is just if freddy expects you to raise Q-9 of hearts that this is more than likely the K of hearts hence cap. If freddy knows you will only raise the river with the A of hearts it's an easy call.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] are you raising the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

i really don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]


Or at least does Freddy expect you to raise the Q - 9 of hearts? If he does I think you have a pretty straight forward 4 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

why are you 4betting when he can likely never call? the guy is a LAG, not a retard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm coming from an high limit online background where people aren't folding the K here. If you believe that he will fold the K then it's an easy call, if he's not folding then it's an easy 3 bet plain and simple. Only you can make that decision based on dynamics of the game or what not. It's a pretty straight forward situation really. My original point is just if freddy expects you to raise Q-9 of hearts that this is more than likely the K of hearts hence cap. If freddy knows you will only raise the river with the A of hearts it's an easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

in most high limit online games, is it not a 4bet cap? thus, there is no fear of getting 5balled, but that is a real fear here.

Re: OK
 

Freddy will never call a reraise and I have played 500-1000 hours with him.

Re: OK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Freddy will never call a reraise and I have played 500-1000 hours with him.

[/ QUOTE ]

And the way he runs against you, you would call the 3rd bet and hold your hand over the muck.

Re: OK
 

i must be amongst the fish that see more value in raising --> value gained raising (villain folds + villain calls w/worse) > value gained calling (hero wins maj of time, loses v rarely) + value lost raising (hero has to call a 5 bet when beat)

if this even makes sense

btw would the ppl who advocate raise, fold to 5 actually fold this in practice?

Re: OK
 

"value gained raising (villain folds"

realize there is no value gained if villain folds.