intermittent fasting
 

This is probably over the top for most of you, but does anyone do this?

I'm thinking about easing into it over the next month and seeing how it goes. I'm also changing strength training programs too so it might be difficult to get it going or actually see how i react to it...

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Doesn't the body start on the muscle when it feels it is being starved? I'm not actually sure what the point of starving yourself is from a fitness standpoint.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

read about it before replying please. you are not starving yourself. you are consuming the same amount of food, the time frame is just shorter.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Provide links when you start throwing around counterintuitive stupid sounding [censored].

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How would you like it if I told you there was a way to eat pretty much anything and everything you wanted to eat and still maintain your health?

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Nothing about this quote from the first link in Google would lead me to think this was anything but 100% solid...

Re: intermittent fasting
 

AZK,

If you're going to respond w/ crap like "read about it before replying please" when people reply, then at least make the effort to provide some information or links in your OP.

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=278
http://www.arthurdevany.com/2006/12/...tent_fa_2.html

Sounds interesting, but also sounds quite counter to most of what I've read about nutrition in recent years.

Big breakfast and lunch, no dinner one day and no breakfast or lunch and big dinner the next sounds pretty much the opposite of what most fitness/nutrition people recommend.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Here is a pretty balanced look at IF:

http://www.fatlosstroubleshoot.com/if.html

I don't know that there's any metabolic magic to IF, any more than there is to the 6-meal/day bodybuilding dogma. There isn't a lot of solid research on IF in humans right now.

I eat 2 meals/day spread 8 hours apart followed by ~15.5 hours fasting(including sleep). I am running at a deficit of 1000 calories/day, and I've found that is the best way to manage hunger/cravings/etc. The 6 meals/day thing is a disaster for me--it leads to obsession with food.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

basic gist is eat same amount of food in a shorter period of time, people do the fasting several different ways, the most popular way is fast 19 hours a day, eat for 5. Termed "the fast five"... some of the claims, increased insulin sensitivity, better sleep, not as much muscle wasting as you think, increased fat burning, etc... I'm gonna try to do it this week starting out as fasting til noon and eating from 12 - 7, each week i'll try and cut it back an hour until i am down to 5 hours of feasting...

Re: intermittent fasting
 

AZK:

"I'm gonna try to do it this week starting out as fasting til noon"

OK, so you're gonna skip breakfast this week.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Jeff,

"I eat 2 meals/day spread 8 hours apart followed by ~15.5 hours fasting(including sleep)."

I bet "eat 2 meals/day spread 6-8 hours apart followed by 16 to 18 hours of fasting" is one of the most common meal schedules in America.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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I eat 2 meals/day spread 8 hours apart followed by ~15.5 hours fasting(including sleep)

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This is not fasting. This is typical.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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I bet "eat 2 meals/day spread 6-8 hours apart followed by 16 to 18 hours of fasting" is one of the most common meal schedules in America.

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No doubt. That is how I ate before I started dieting. Years of eating that was habituated me to that pattern, which is likely why it's much easier for me to eat that way now.

IIRC, a "hardcore" IF protocol is more like 32-48 hours of fasting, but I don't see sufficient reason to follow a radical schedule like that. My interest in IF research is primarily the freedom from the old 5-6 meal/day dogma.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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I bet "eat 2 meals/day spread 6-8 hours apart followed by 16 to 18 hours of fasting" is one of the most common meal schedules in America.

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No doubt. That is how I ate before I started dieting. Years of eating that was habituated me to that pattern, which is likely why it's much easier for me to eat that way now.

IIRC, a "hardcore" IF protocol is more like 32-48 hours of fasting, but I don't see sufficient reason to follow a radical schedule like that. My interest in IF research is primarily the freedom from the old 5-6 meal/day dogma.

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Seems like a weak cop out to follow a very poor diet.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

[ QUOTE ]
AZK:

"I'm gonna try to do it this week starting out as fasting til noon"

OK, so you're gonna skip breakfast this week.

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Right, but I was going to stop eating by 6pm... so I was going to get all my food in between 12-6. After reading more I think I'll do something more along the lines of MWF eat from 2-7PM (working out at noon) and T/Th I'll try and do 12-6 or later if I find it easy enough.... No promises on the weekend....

Re: intermittent fasting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No doubt. That is how I ate before I started dieting. Years of eating that was habituated me to that pattern, which is likely why it's much easier for me to eat that way now. IIRC, a "hardcore" IF protocol is more like 32-48 hours of fasting, but I don't see sufficient reason to follow a radical schedule like that. My interest in IF research is primarily the freedom from the old 5-6 meal/day dogma.

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Seems like a weak cop out to follow a very poor diet.

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Please link to scientific studies showing the metabolic advantages of increased meal frequency.

I've lost 7" off my waist so far and feel great following my "very poor diet". Sample size of one and all, but that's all that matters for dieting--finding a routine that you can live with on a caloric deficit.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Here are some studies showing no effect from increased meal frequency:

1

2

3

4

5

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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but that's all that matters for dieting--finding a routine that you can live with on a caloric deficit.

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Actually no, not really. You can gain weight on a caloric deficit if you are very careful (very lax?). Judging by your comments any research I'd present would likely be wasted.

Perhaps looking for Berardi and "A New View of Energy Balance" and some rudimentary reading on the subject of insulin sensitivity etc. would be helpful for you.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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Judging by your comments any research I'd present would likely be wasted.

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Sounds like a weak copout to avoid defending your position.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

I only looked at the very first abstract. And apparently I can't read because it appears to suggest the opposite of what you are arguing.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

I'd have to get the whole paper again, but IIRC the weight gain was not statistically significant.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Heh. Right. Which is why the conclusion is: If feeding frequency alters metabolic efficiency then it does so by mechanisms not readily discernible in a whole body calorimeter.

I assume you saw the part which appears to directly contradict your claim "studies showing no effect from increased meal frequency": a progressive small weight gain was observed throughout the 2-week period on the two-meal-a-day system.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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I'd have to get the whole paper again, but IIRC the weight gain was not statistically significant.

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Okay.

edit: I gather what I've responded to above has been removed, entirely-- so my comment above makes less sense than usual.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Can we get back on track? I'd like to hear what shemp/thremp/blarg/whoever elses opinion i respect but don't know/cbloom think about IF and if they've ever done anything like it? I could spend a lot of time on websites filled with IF/CF/Zone/Paleo junkies but I feel like my perspective gets skewed too easily on these sites...

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Here's another study, found mixed/modest results(lost fat mass, some heart disease indicators increased, etc):

6

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Jeff,

Can you find research that is pertinent? After briefly reading through them, I think the longest study was 4 weeks, while the shortest was 6 days. That strikes me as utterly and totally pointless. In addition most of the diets aren't similar to what someone would eat (the thermic effect of protein is higher than with cards or fats, perhaps this would interesting to see if it matters how often you are fed protein or not). Lastly, some of the studies cover adult females eating 1000 calories a day... With a bunch of fat women... I doubt you'd be able to pick the difference out between the ones that ate 800 cals a day and 1000 cals a day with statistical significance over the time period.

These studies strike me as poorly constructed and not pertinent to the issue at hand. IIRC there are equal studies discussing PWO nutrition in the same light over equal time frames.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

I don't know if there is perfect research out there applying to body building/athletics/etc. There is a dearth of good nutritional research in general, with many flawed studies.

The best research is probably in animals, showing improved life span from reduced meal frequencies. It is questionable how applicable those results are to humans.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can we get back on track? I'd like to hear what shemp/thremp/blarg/whoever elses opinion i respect but don't know/cbloom think about IF and if they've ever done anything like it? I could spend a lot of time on websites filled with IF/CF/Zone/Paleo junkies but I feel like my perspective gets skewed too easily on these sites...

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No, I've never done this stuff, and will never do this sort of thing. I think your plan is silly and goes pretty much against what is done with no research to really support the benefits of this. Not that this is a generally good idea in and of itself, but testing the benefits of diets especially when there will be a large metabolism shift. I'd be interested to see what long term proponents of this diet look like. Is there a macronutrient breakdown or would you just be eatin 1250 cals of 40/30/30 twice a day?

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Jeff W, link 6 doesn't seem to do very well in providing the backing you are looking for in my view, either-- although I'd have to get off my butt and read the whole thing. Also, I'll respect AZK's wishes about his thread (although, I'd have thought a literature review was welcome).

AZK. Whatever works for you is what works for you. A sample of 1 is plenty. A lot of cultures use fasting, and fasting was presumably part of our evolutionary past. I'm not interested in fasting-- at all, but I'll admit to skepticism of a long-term eating strategy that increases hunger. Also, I think the Paleo adherents at Crossfit make all sorts of dubious claims-- but I don't have enough interest to run them down.

I look forward to hearing of your progress/results.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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Is there a macronutrient breakdown or would you just be eatin 1250 cals of 40/30/30 twice a day?

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I don't shoot for an ideal macro nutrient breakdown, but I think it'd be a bad idea to eat too many high glycemic index carbohydrates because it would spike blood sugar etc and make one feel [censored]. The only carbohydrates I eat are from vegetables(mostly broccoli, celery, squash, asparagus, bell peppers, spinach, cauliflower) which are low glycemic load. I also eat a lot of "slow" protein i.e. calcium caseinate.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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Jeff W, link 6 doesn't seem to do very well in providing the backing you are looking for in my view, either-- although I'd have to get off my butt and read the whole thing.

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Like I said, the results were mixed because the 1 meal/day made people hungrier and increase heart disease risk indicators, etc, but the 1 meal/day diet actually had positive effect on body composition(fat vs. lean mass)

The differences were modest, though--I don't claim that reduced meal frequency has an advantage over nibbling patterns, just that there isn't a substantial difference and both are viable approaches to dieting.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

jeff,

i dont know if you understand why you are supposed to eat 6 meals a day, its more for teh prevention of loss of lean muscle mass, than anything else. Starving yourself is bad, unless you just want to be a skinny muscleless dude, losing weight is cals in vs cals out, little else, but if you dont want your body to lose a bunch of muscle eat often.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Thremp -

I would be eating paleo foods, I never really followed zone proportions because its too hard to find paleo friendly carbs, I still eat non paleo, but on a day in/day out basis most of my food is paleo. If I'm out with friends whatever ill eat pizza, i still drink coffee, i drink alcohol, i eat dairy, so basically its not really paleo hardcore per se, rather, i just dramatically cut down on my grains and upped veggies/fruit big time...and a lot more of my fat now comes from healthy sources.

As for IF, I am not eating any less than I used to, I'm just eating it differently. There is no caloric deficit other than the minor one I have myself on in general.

So for example, my normal routine was breakfast at 8am (4 eggs and a banana) a larabar at 10am, chicken breast +veggies lunch 1230PM, workout, dinner was fish/chicken/steak + veggies (7pm).

Now I am trying to condense all that, so for instance, today was no food til noon, where I had chicken salad, tomato, cucumber salad, worked out, came home made 5 eggs, an hour later ate chicken, broccoli, some cheese, etc... all this finished by 630pm....So same amount of food, just between 12-630. Tomorrow I am going to shoot for 1pm - 6pm. Most times I am going to try and have workout days (MWF) as fasting til after the workout, so say workout from 12-130PM, then eat from 130-7PM. Fast. rinse/repeat. weekends will probably be "normal" eating patterns.

Most people that are on IF love it, but my sample is skewed as it's all the people from CF that were too hard core for the CF forums and formed their own nutrition/workout forums....

Shemp -

I would be happy with literature, but I'm pretty sure there isn't any on IF other than for C. Elegans (a nematode)...

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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i dont know if you understand why you are supposed to eat 6 meals a day, its more for teh prevention of loss of lean muscle mass, than anything else. Starving yourself is bad, unless you just want to be a skinny muscleless dude, losing weight is cals in vs cals out, little else, but if you dont want your body to lose a bunch of muscle eat often.

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Can you(or anyone else) substantiate this? I haven't seen evidence that meal frequency affects body composition.

And you're not "starving yourself" on any type of IF. You eat the same number of calories you would otherwise, just all at once instead of spread out. The body can assimilate a lot of protein in one sitting and protein intake is the most important factor in sparing lean mass.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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I would be happy with literature, but I'm pretty sure there isn't any on IF other than for C. Elegans (a nematode)...

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There is quite a bit on PubMed, but mostly it's about rodents.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont know if you understand why you are supposed to eat 6 meals a day, its more for teh prevention of loss of lean muscle mass, than anything else. Starving yourself is bad, unless you just want to be a skinny muscleless dude, losing weight is cals in vs cals out, little else, but if you dont want your body to lose a bunch of muscle eat often.

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Can you(or anyone else) substantiate this? I haven't seen evidence that meal frequency affects body composition.

And you're not "starving yourself" on any type of IF. You eat the same number of calories you would otherwise, just all at once instead of spread out. The body can assimilate a lot of protein in one sitting and protein intake is the most important factor in sparing lean mass.

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Ya, I can, the info is everywhere on the net Im too lazy yo post the articles. the body can assimilate a lot of protein, but you are so far of the mark when you say protien intake is the most important factor in sparing lean mass I have to question your basic understanding of nutrition.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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Ya, I can, the info is everywhere on the net Im too lazy yo post the articles. the body can assimilate a lot of protein, but you are so far of the mark when you say protien intake is the most important factor in sparing lean mass I have to question your basic understanding of nutrition.

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If my understanding of basic nutrition is so flawed, then it should be simple to refute me. The more protein you eat, the more dietary protein the liver uses because it is more readily available than body protein to make glucose. Search for research articles on "protein sparing modified fast".

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Are you having trouble focusing in class/ when studying at night during the fasts?

Re: intermittent fasting
 

AZK, I do random fasting and think it is great. For example, I might just have a day where I'll get by on some coffee, a banana, and a piece of toast. I have no idea as to the exact health effects but don't observe anything beyond a little less energy. But I also feel it's very calming somehow. Great de-stresser.

The real benefit I've found from this is that it gives me more mental power over hunger. By doing this, I learned that I can ignore hunger feelings for hours. Before the fasting experiments, I was one of those people who got really impatient about needing to eat at the first sign of hunger.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

Also, I don't understand why so many people think it is a big deal to skip breakfast or fast or whatever. Go back even a hundred years to where we didn't have much refridgeration or packaged foods and people "fasted" much more often. Go back 2,000 years and it's even more true.

Our bodies evolved to be able to go much more than 2 hours without eating.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

I don't agree or dissagree with you, but making the argument that humans fasted back in the day as evidence for its healthiness is pretty weak. Humans 2k years ago rarely grew taller than 5'6" or so and most died in their 20's and 30's.

Re: intermittent fasting
 

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I don't agree or dissagree with you, but making the argument that humans fasted back in the day as evidence for its healthiness is pretty weak. Humans 2k years ago rarely grew taller than 5'6" or so and most died in their 20's and 30's.

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Well, humans back then often "fasted" for weeks at a time. I don't think that's a good idea. And height is going to relate to childhood nutrition rather than adult nutrition. I would probably not advise children/teens to fast, but I'm also not a doctor.

I'm also not claiming that it's healthy for adults to fast, just that I doubt it's harmful, as humans 2,000 years ago must have gone a couple of days w/o food on a pretty regular basis (or at least w/ low quality food for long periods). I think it's likely that the body has evolved to handle this sort of thing relatively well. But I'm not an evolutionary scientist or anything either.