My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

My Dad is part of the teamsters union. He drives a truck for Thomas's english muffins. Tommorrow they will likely go on strike and I'm pretty sure that the new owner is going to break the strike and fire them.

Well, my Dad has a really good job. He makes a lot of money and has great benefits considering the kind of job he has. Generally I can't think of anyone who would ever want to lose thier job.

How did we get here? Well they were supposed to vote on a five year contract. Everyone from NYC, NJ, and Conneticute was suppose to meet at the union building in Manhatten to vote on it. My Dad showed up, but most of the people from his depot were "too busy" to vote on the contract for the next five years of thier lives. As a result the meeting was dominated by people from the NY depot.

We were offered a really good contract. I'm not going to go into details, but to give you an idea the increases in medical benefits were 15%, 13%, and 10% for the first three years. My Dad was pleasently surprised by the contract, and accepting it should be a no-brainer.

However, the people in NY don't like thier new depot manager. So much so they decided they will vote down every single contract until he is fired. The union leader tried to explain to them that the contract was over pay and benefits, and that grievences with a manager had to be filed seperately and dealt with as a seperate process. They didn't care and they voted down the contract (the only union under this companies management to do so under the terms of that contract. every other depot wasn't retarded).

Tommorrow they are supposed to vote on a new contract. Pissed off at how retarded they were the company has made them a new offer. No benefits or pay increases at all in any year. Obviously, they are going to vote this down and strike.

In previous years strikes worked because the company was fairly small and the strike was a threat. Now it is owned by a large multi national that will probably absorb the strike and hire scabs.

I'm just really pissed the hell off. These guys have good union jobs where they are making three times what they would make if they lose thier jobs. But they were too [censored] lazy to show up or too [censored] stupid to think with thier heads.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

That's really absurd. I am sorry to hear about your father's situation.

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What does your dad think about the situation?

Don't worry about your dad. Its very ususual for companies to hire permanent replacements for established unions.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

Blog?

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What does your dad think about the situation?

Don't worry about your dad. Its very ususual for companies to hire permanent replacements for established unions.

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It seems like in a case like this that leaving the union should be seriously considered. I think remaining in a union that is not able to represent your best interests would be counter productive, but I have no idea what the realities are for working in this business without a union.

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What does your dad think about the situation?

Don't worry about your dad. Its very ususual for companies to hire permanent replacements for established unions.

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It seems like in a case like this that leaving the union should be seriously considered. I think remaining in a union that is not able to represent your best interests would be counter productive, but I have no idea what the realities are for working in this business without a union.

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My Dad will never leave the union. He is a huge union guy. He hates the way his union is acting, but he will never ever ever cross a picket line. My family has a long union history. My grandfather was a union organizer and a card carrying communist when he was young. My Dad will go down with the union, even if losing his job means he doesn't have a shot in hell of getting the diabetes treatment he needs.

What annoys the hell out of me and him is that the people from his depot didn't even show up. They had 150 drivers that were supposed to show up and only 64 did, most of them from NY. How in the hell does someone decide they don't have the time to show up to vote on a contract that will effect the next 5 years of thier live. They are not skilled workers. They drive a [censored] truck. They are gonna go from 80,000/year jobs with health and retirement benefits to 30,000/year jobs with no benefits if they blow this. How can you not show up to vote on that contract?

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

another example of the antiquity of unions in america.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

Maybe the company will just fire the NY depot manager in response to this? We have no way of knowing whether or not this will be the case, and you haven't shown that it would in anyway difficult to fire the manager. It also seems plausible that productivity would be higher under a different manager, as a lot of productivity will be wasted bad mouthing, debating with, not listening to, trying to sabotage or get fired, the manager (etc.). The reality is that there are plenty people that have nearly equally good qualifications that would take the managers job, and the company itself would be better off picking one that the employees didn't disdain with a passion. The union's actions let the larger company know that productivity loss would be the case if the manager stayed, and my guess is that he will simply be replaced or at least transfered. The union plays a useful role in increasing productivity if the company lets it instead of fighting with it, making the company aware that these problems will occur under this manager. My guess is that firing the manager is, and should be, exponentially more likely to occur than the scenario you laid out. In general as well, the belief that a union will be eliminated if it, you know, actually is effective, is, in the vast majority of cases, simply an illusion that is useful for the company to foster to gain control over the workers and more profits.

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you mean abandon antiquity and go back to the old way? I like your logic.

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I'm just really pissed the hell off. These guys have good union jobs where they are making three times what they would make if they lose thier jobs.

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This right here makes me wonder why any thinking capitalist might suffer a union.

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What does your dad think about the situation?

Don't worry about your dad. Its very ususual for companies to hire permanent replacements for established unions.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like in a case like this that leaving the union should be seriously considered. I think remaining in a union that is not able to represent your best interests would be counter productive, but I have no idea what the realities are for working in this business without a union.

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My Dad will never leave the union. He is a huge union guy. He hates the way his union is acting, but he will never ever ever cross a picket line. My family has a long union history. My grandfather was a union organizer and a card carrying communist when he was young. My Dad will go down with the union, even if losing his job means he doesn't have a shot in hell of getting the diabetes treatment he needs.

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Sounds more like your dad joined a cult than a union.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

They are not going to fire the manager. They already made thier decision. They are presenting thier no increase contract to the union tommorrow to punish them for turning down the original contract, and let them know who is boss. At that point they have to strike.

This contract wasn't even about depot managers. It was about wages and benefits. There is a mechanism for people to bring grievences with a manager to the union. These [censored] morons are too stupid to do that.

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They didn't care and they voted down the contract (the only union under this company's management to do so under the terms of that contract. every other depot wasn't retarded).

[/ QUOTE ]How are decisions taken? I understood that this was only one chapter/depot among many. Is there a veto or something?

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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What does your dad think about the situation?

Don't worry about your dad. Its very ususual for companies to hire permanent replacements for established unions.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like in a case like this that leaving the union should be seriously considered. I think remaining in a union that is not able to represent your best interests would be counter productive, but I have no idea what the realities are for working in this business without a union.

[/ QUOTE ]

My Dad will never leave the union. He is a huge union guy. He hates the way his union is acting, but he will never ever ever cross a picket line. My family has a long union history. My grandfather was a union organizer and a card carrying communist when he was young. My Dad will go down with the union, even if losing his job means he doesn't have a shot in hell of getting the diabetes treatment he needs.

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Sounds more like your dad joined a cult than a union.

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It sounds to me like his dad has principles.

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If I own stock in a company usually I support a get tough with the unions strategy. It may not be that bad though. The UAW went out on strike against GM and that one was settled very quickly.

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[ QUOTE ]
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What does your dad think about the situation?

Don't worry about your dad. Its very ususual for companies to hire permanent replacements for established unions.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like in a case like this that leaving the union should be seriously considered. I think remaining in a union that is not able to represent your best interests would be counter productive, but I have no idea what the realities are for working in this business without a union.

[/ QUOTE ]

My Dad will never leave the union. He is a huge union guy. He hates the way his union is acting, but he will never ever ever cross a picket line. My family has a long union history. My grandfather was a union organizer and a card carrying communist when he was young. My Dad will go down with the union, even if losing his job means he doesn't have a shot in hell of getting the diabetes treatment he needs.

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Sounds more like your dad joined a cult than a union.

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It sounds to me like his dad has principles.

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Yep, this was essentially my thought too.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

lehighguy wrote in his OP in part:

We were offered a really good contract. I'm not going to go into details, but to give you an idea the increases in medical benefits were 15%, 13%, and 10% for the first three years. My Dad was pleasently surprised by the contract, and accepting it should be a no-brainer.

and he wrote in this subthread:

My Dad will never leave the union. He is a huge union guy. He hates the way his union is acting, but he will never ever ever cross a picket line. My family has a long union history. My grandfather was a union organizer and a card carrying communist when he was young. My Dad will go down with the union, even if losing his job means he doesn't have a shot in hell of getting the diabetes treatment he needs


So your saying this is a principled position. The principle apparently is to support the union power structure at the expenxe of significant wage increases and undertake a substantial health risk needlessly. I'll vote with the cult behavior ideas rather than a principled stance.

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I'll vote with the cult behavior ideas rather than a principled stance.

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+1

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Well, if sticking to principle only means sticking to them when it is in your best interest, we're obviously operating with two different version of the word principle.

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Well, if sticking to principle only means sticking to them when it is in your best interest, we're obviously operating with two different version of the word principle.

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What is the principle we're sticking to?

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Well, if sticking to principle only means sticking to them when it is in your best interest, we're obviously operating with two different version of the word principle.

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Cults have principles. The principle of being brain-washed into sticking with something even when it makes your life worse.

I wouldn't use such strong language except for the fact that he might not be able to get his diabetes treated and the union is being plainly moronic.

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What does your dad think about the situation?

Don't worry about your dad. Its very ususual for companies to hire permanent replacements for established unions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but it's fairly common for them to weather a long strike in order to force the union to accept the same deal (or a worse one) that they could have gotten in the first place. The fact that there second offer was worse than the original is a pretty good sign that the company is going to play hardball now. Corporations have figured out that a strike often hurts the workers more than the company. The NY people who are trying to use a strike to get rid of a manager they don't like are retards.

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Well, if sticking to principle only means sticking to them when it is in your best interest, we're obviously operating with two different version of the word principle.

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This is the problem. A union exists to always protect the workers. I am having trouble envisioning when a union should do something that isn't in its members best interest.

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If I own stock in a company usually I support a get tough with the unions strategy. It may not be that bad though. The UAW went out on strike against GM and that one was settled very quickly.

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I support a "Give them an hour to pout and get their asses back on the job, or you're fired and I'll hire some drivers who will work for $40k a yr instead of $80k" strategy.

Sorry to hear about your dad though. Situations like his are why I don't like unions.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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They drive a [censored] truck. They are gonna go from 80,000/year jobs with health and retirement benefits to 30,000/year jobs with no benefits if they blow this. How can you not show up to vote on that contract?

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I'm reminded of a Simpsons line:

"Can't somebody else do it?"

Not to say that your whole story sounds like BS, but... I don't know how else to phrase that. The NY guys don't like their depot manager so they're going to willing lose $80k/year jobs over it? That's so completely logical that I'm sure there's nothing else going on in that situation.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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If I own stock in a company usually I support a get tough with the unions strategy. It may not be that bad though. The UAW went out on strike against GM and that one was settled very quickly.

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I support a "Give them an hour to pout and get their asses back on the job, or you're fired and I'll hire some drivers who will work for $40k a yr instead of $80k" strategy.

Sorry to hear about your dad though. Situations like his are why I don't like unions.

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This makes no sense. You realize that his situation, while not ideal, is a a hell of a lot better than it would have been if there was never any union at all, right?

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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Well, if sticking to principle only means sticking to them when it is in your best interest, we're obviously operating with two different version of the word principle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cults have principles. The principle of being brain-washed into sticking with something even when it makes your life worse.

I wouldn't use such strong language except for the fact that he might not be able to get his diabetes treated and the union is being plainly moronic.

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The principle is solidarity. It means sticking by your fellow men for the benefit of everyone. Union men don't cut and run when things go south. They don't talk anti-union talk or turn on their fellow workers. A smart worker knows that this is exactly what the boss wants.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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Well, if sticking to principle only means sticking to them when it is in your best interest, we're obviously operating with two different version of the word principle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cults have principles. The principle of being brain-washed into sticking with something even when it makes your life worse.

I wouldn't use such strong language except for the fact that he might not be able to get his diabetes treated and the union is being plainly moronic.

[/ QUOTE ]

The principle is solidarity. It means sticking by your fellow men for the benefit of everyone. Union men don't cut and run when things go south. They don't talk anti-union talk or turn on their fellow workers. A smart worker knows that this is exactly what the boss wants.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds to me like the guys who voted down the contract because of something unrelated to the contract process have already turned on their fellow workers.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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My Dad will go down with the union, even if losing his job means he doesn't have a shot in hell of getting the diabetes treatment he needs.

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He's not going down with the union, he's going down with a few morons who are risking their jobs (and the jobs of their fellow union members) because their new boss is a pain in the ass.

A union is made up of people. It's not a thing that deserves loyalty in and of itself. If the people in the union all start acting like idiots, it may be time to rethink one's loyalties.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

If the company is playing hardball with the reduced second contract it sounds like they are trying to get rid of the union anyway. I doubt that anything better could have been negotiated. They probably don't want to overpay for these jobs, and have figured out a way around the problem.

Hopefully thats not the case and you Dad will be back at work shortly.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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If the company is playing hardball with the reduced second contract it sounds like they are trying to get rid of the union anyway. I doubt that anything better could have been negotiated. They probably don't want to overpay for these jobs, and have figured out a way around the problem.

Hopefully thats not the case and you Dad will be back at work shortly.

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Playing hardball? The company offered what they felt was a generous offer and got slapped in the face by the union in return.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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My Dad will go down with the union, even if losing his job means he doesn't have a shot in hell of getting the diabetes treatment he needs.

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He's not going down with the union, he's going down with a few morons who are risking their jobs (and the jobs of their fellow union members) because their new boss is a pain in the ass.

A union is made up of people. It's not a thing that deserves loyalty in and of itself. If the people in the union all start acting like idiots, it may be time to rethink one's loyalties.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people are being a little naive to suggest that the father can just walk out on the Teamsters and scab during a strike. It's not the mob days any more, but he could expect union fines, social ostracism, or even physical intimidation/violence.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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My Dad will go down with the union, even if losing his job means he doesn't have a shot in hell of getting the diabetes treatment he needs.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not going down with the union, he's going down with a few morons who are risking their jobs (and the jobs of their fellow union members) because their new boss is a pain in the ass.

A union is made up of people. It's not a thing that deserves loyalty in and of itself. If the people in the union all start acting like idiots, it may be time to rethink one's loyalties.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people are being a little naive to suggest that the father can just walk out on the Teamsters and scab during a strike. It's not the mob days any more, but he could expect union fines, social ostracism, or even physical intimidation/violence.

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as well he should. You don't scab for the boss in situations like this. You solve it in-house.
If I don't like the president of the US, I don't join Al Qaeda. I deal with it in-house.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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My Dad will go down with the union, even if losing his job means he doesn't have a shot in hell of getting the diabetes treatment he needs.

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He's not going down with the union, he's going down with a few morons who are risking their jobs (and the jobs of their fellow union members) because their new boss is a pain in the ass.

A union is made up of people. It's not a thing that deserves loyalty in and of itself. If the people in the union all start acting like idiots, it may be time to rethink one's loyalties.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people are being a little naive to suggest that the father can just walk out on the Teamsters and scab during a strike. It's not the mob days any more, but he could expect union fines, social ostracism, or even physical intimidation/violence.

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as well he should. You don't scab for the boss in situations like this. You solve it in-house.
If I don't like the president of the US, I don't join Al Qaeda. I deal with it in-house.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah screw that ass for trying to do his job for what he thinks is a good deal without suffering intimidation. How selfish is he not wanting to lose his medical coverage over the petty squabbles of a group of people he doesn't know.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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My Dad will go down with the union, even if losing his job means he doesn't have a shot in hell of getting the diabetes treatment he needs.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not going down with the union, he's going down with a few morons who are risking their jobs (and the jobs of their fellow union members) because their new boss is a pain in the ass.

A union is made up of people. It's not a thing that deserves loyalty in and of itself. If the people in the union all start acting like idiots, it may be time to rethink one's loyalties.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people are being a little naive to suggest that the father can just walk out on the Teamsters and scab during a strike. It's not the mob days any more, but he could expect union fines, social ostracism, or even physical intimidation/violence.

[/ QUOTE ]

as well he should. You don't scab for the boss in situations like this. You solve it in-house.
If I don't like the president of the US, I don't join Al Qaeda. I deal with it in-house.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are advocating violence and threats against someone for wanting to do a job? Awesome.

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

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My Dad will go down with the union, even if losing his job means he doesn't have a shot in hell of getting the diabetes treatment he needs.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not going down with the union, he's going down with a few morons who are risking their jobs (and the jobs of their fellow union members) because their new boss is a pain in the ass.

A union is made up of people. It's not a thing that deserves loyalty in and of itself. If the people in the union all start acting like idiots, it may be time to rethink one's loyalties.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people are being a little naive to suggest that the father can just walk out on the Teamsters and scab during a strike. It's not the mob days any more, but he could expect union fines, social ostracism, or even physical intimidation/violence.

[/ QUOTE ]

as well he should. You don't scab for the boss in situations like this. You solve it in-house.
If I don't like the president of the US, I don't join Al Qaeda. I deal with it in-house.

[/ QUOTE ]
His first alliances are with his family. I have a feeling that he is the breadwinner in the house(leigihigh can correct me if wrong) and his first duty is to take care of them. If that means crossing a picket line so they can eat then so be it.

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Well, if sticking to principle only means sticking to them when it is in your best interest, we're obviously operating with two different version of the word principle.

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This is the problem. A union exists to always protect the workers. I am having trouble envisioning when a union should do something that isn't in its members best interest.

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A union exists to collect union dues and control vast sums of money. To think the union will always (or even usually)act in the best interest of it's membership is naive.

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Well, if sticking to principle only means sticking to them when it is in your best interest, we're obviously operating with two different version of the word principle.

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This is the problem. A union exists to always protect the workers. I am having trouble envisioning when a union should do something that isn't in its members best interest.

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A union exists to collect union dues and control vast sums of money. To think the union will always (or even usually)act in the best interest of it's membership is naive.

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It starts out so honest which is the saddest part, but I guess that is the case with everything. Start out just trying to help out people, then it gets bogged down with actual human beings.

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Well, if sticking to principle only means sticking to them when it is in your best interest, we're obviously operating with two different version of the word principle.

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Cults have principles. The principle of being brain-washed into sticking with something even when it makes your life worse.

I wouldn't use such strong language except for the fact that he might not be able to get his diabetes treated and the union is being plainly moronic.

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The principle is solidarity. It means sticking by your fellow men for the benefit of the slackers and the detriment of the most productive people. Union men don't cut and run when things go south. They don't talk anti-union talk or turn on their fellow workers. A decicated, perpetual slacker knows that he can continue to be unproductive as long as the union can cover for him.

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FYP

Re: My Dad\'s [censored] Union
 

Adios, what makes you think productive workers don't get anything out of unions? I'll bet that excluding independent contractors, lehighguy's dad makes more than the best non-union driver in the city.

You guys are talking about "Oh noes, he might lose his job!!!", but that is so standard. People quit jobs all the time because of crappy bosses. People lose jobs all the time because of salary disagreements. The situation is much better from the worker's POV in a union because with a union, there is actually a chance they can get what they want without quitting.