ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t6000/t12000
(Ante: t1500)
6 players
Converter

Seat 3: BTN (195,665)
Seat 4: SB (142,692)
Seat 5: Hero (381,456)
Seat 6: (424,866)
Seat 7: (228,024)
Seat 8: (187,551)



Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
3 folds, Button calls t12000 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t27000)</font>, SB calls t6000 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t39000)</font>, Hero ?

BTN has been open shoving, and I'm pretty sure this is his first limp. I'm really not worried about SB. Should I just be shipping it in? If I raise, am I calling a shove?

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

You are too deep to shove (380k into a 39k pot is ridiculous).

I'd raise - make it 36k.

I'd fold to a 4-bet, too likely that you are dominated and reorientate on the flop if get called.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

Ship it in.

What are the payouts of the tournament?

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

36K is no good, if you get two callers, you are giving one of your opponents a ballooned pot and it's going to suck. You rarely don't get called here and you'd have to play OOP. If button calls your limp, his range is really wide and it's goign to be hard to cont. bet.

Proper play here, IMO, is to push or check. 40K in the pot and button has 180K, opponent less. It's greater than 20% of either stack. You're not worried about your stack here, just there's. It's like "I have 4k, he has 2K, so I'm deep, I call." Who cares if you have 4K, when he has 1.7K left in a 400 pot...

Button is probably limping now because he's pretty healthy and is no trying to see a flop cheap. However, you really don't know this for sure. He probably is afraid of a three bet and is limping with JT or 66 or JQ or something along those lines. If I had 250K or something, I would push. With my stack, I think I check. But table dynamics and feel are verything here.

I'd say push and check are close here. Def. not a raise to 36K.

Barry

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ship it in.

What are the payouts of the tournament?

[/ QUOTE ]

1st $5200
2nd $3200
3rd $1700ish

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

All in push shove etc.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

Barry - you contradict yourself here. First you explain (correctly) that we're dealing with effective stack sizes here, not your stack. Then you say that if your stack size was closer to 250k, you'd shove... even though effective stacks are only like 195k here.

As far as the hand goes, I definitely like a raise here and, since I'd be calling any push, I might as well just push in the first place. It's a bit of an overbet, but it maximizes FE and I'm really happy raking in the 45k that's sitting out there.

And it'll also be the last time anyone [censored] with your blind.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

Shove seems somehow stupid IMO like LevAA also pointed out the pot is just 39k

i would like a raise but not 36k tho

id raise like 50kish
fold to a shove
and make a large c-bet on any face card flop
lets say only button calls
pot will be 140k C-bet 90k and villian will have to decide if he wants to trow in his stack


Edit: i agree if youre gonna call a shove
just shove it in youreself

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

Barry

This is exactly how I felt. I hated the idea of raising here, cause the BTN flats, no ace on the flop and I c/f???

The maniac inside just screamed push and punish the limpers, make them make a decision for their stack. But the BTN limp seemed weird for this guy.

It seemed a little bit like he had a pp--something like 44-88, and wasn't sure what to do with it. Although a hand like QJ, JTs, KJ, etc seem plausible as well.

Obv. if I think he's got unpaired broadway this is a shove. But if Villain is holding a pp&lt;10, this a pretty clear shove, right?

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

If the pot were 2k more, I'd shove.


Otherwise I'm checking.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shove seems somehow stupid IMO like LevAA also pointed out the pot is just 39k

i would like a raise but not 36k tho

id raise like 50kish
fold to a shove
and make a large c-bet on any face card flop
lets say only button calls
pot will be 140k C-bet 90k and villian will have to decide if he wants to trow in his stack


Edit: i agree if youre gonna call a shove
just shove it in youreself

[/ QUOTE ]

But also, if you're going to lead just about any flop, why not just ship it in yourself?

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

in case villian has a PP you have way more FE on a overcarded flop then making a Sqeeuze play PreFlop

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

That's assuming that Villain is bad enough to limp/call PF, and then fold the flop

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

[ QUOTE ]
That's assuming that Villain is bad enough to limp/call PF, and then fold the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume anyone who open limps a pot is bad.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

oh, and if it matters at all, we're approaching around the FT bubble

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's assuming that Villain is bad enough to limp/call PF, and then fold the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume anyone who open limps a pot is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obv. But a player bad enough to limp/call half his stack PF only to fold the flop is a different animal

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

either way the button is bad for not raising here PF
i dont know what image villian or hero has
if hes limping AJs+ hes gonna call that PF shove
and prob will do same with PP
so why not play post flop ?
also the raise to 50kish PF is gonna look stronger then the sqeeuze IMO

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's assuming that Villain is bad enough to limp/call PF, and then fold the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume anyone who open limps a pot is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

The only way there's really any postflop play is if I check, IMO. Because if I raise to 50K and Villain calls, he is committed to the hand.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

button is weak here so much and the sb's basically irrelevant. i think your range should be significantly wider than AT.

if you want to raise an amount that isn't a shove you should go and go, make it about 70000 and push any flop.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

the 50k is 1/4th of his stack and stack is big enough for him to fold

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

I think the button limp shorthanded can be very suspiscious. I might just see a flop here.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

Maybe I am contradicting myself, Sap. I don't know. My reasoning is that the smaller the stack I have, the more valuable these chips in the middle become to me. At 250K, there is 40K in the pot, I'm by far happier (maybe not 250K - 220K?) making a push here and picking up those chips. Law of diminishing returns for the win - as your stack increases to a certain point, you want to push less given the size of the pot in proportion to YOUR stack. At the same time, you must consider other stack sizes. Yes?

I do this a lot with marginal hands - sometimes I'm in error. Obviously, if you have 140K, you would push here, right? 170K? 220K? 250K?

For some reason, I assumed we were FT already. That leans me more toward a check. I think check is definitely the best play.

Also, raising to 50K is wrong, IMO. It's what a lot of players do - give yourself an excuse to get it in preflop by making a strong move, then you shoot yourself in the foot. If you think this is a massive trap, then you should check. It's that simple. If your stack is smaller and you feel like the % return you are getting from a push/FE by far outweighs your fear of a trap, then you should push. That's my reaosning, and I welcome critiques, because admittedly, it doesn't feel all that concrete.

Barry

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

Given no reads, this is the easiest shove in the world. You shove to maximize FE, AT rates to be the best hand right now, we're oop, there's about 10% of our stack on the table, and any raise get's us pot committed to a reshove from the small stacks.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

Ok, Barry... I understand where you're coming from now.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given no reads, this is the easiest shove in the world. You shove to maximize FE, AT rates to be the best hand right now, we're oop, there's about 10% of our stack on the table, and any raise get's us pot committed to a reshove from the small stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think that increases of your stack at 10% are for those players who aren't capable of (no offense, deuces, you're not one of these players) making more proficient moves postflop, 3-betting, etc. I want to start thinking along these lines: I'm not someone who needs to make pushes for 10% of my stack. I can find more stronger moves.

We see this "10%" rule for preflop pushes, and it's totally brutish. You're trying to accumulate 10% of your stack, all well and good, but Hagbard is one of the better posters here and doesn't need to be making massive pushes for 10% of his stack, especially right after the FT bubble.

Look - I'm trying not to be results orientated here - but over the past YEAR, pushing limpers for 10% of my stack has never resulted in me making significant advances in tournaments. Ever. It's a mouse chunk of what I needed to do to really make it - 3-bet, stop n' go, go n' go, max flop value. At 350K and right outside the FT bubble, you can raise, make strong flop plays, punish blinds to your left, etc. rather than make a push for 10% of your stack. Especially against a suspect button limp.

Barry

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are too deep to shove (380k into a 39k pot is ridiculous).

I'd raise - make it 36k.

I'd fold to a 4-bet, too likely that you are dominated and reorientate on the flop if get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

We're playing with effective stacks, the fact that we have 380k has nothing to do with our stack to pot ratio.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

Ship it in, effective stacks are like 16BB's.

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

[ QUOTE ]


I really think that increases of your stack at 10% are for those players who aren't capable of (no offense, deuces, you're not one of these players) making more proficient moves postflop, 3-betting, etc. I want to start thinking along these lines: I'm not someone who needs to make pushes for 10% of my stack. I can find more stronger moves.



[/ QUOTE ]

I've been finding this to be very true. Especially 3betting in these smaller tournaments where most of the players seem to open light in LP, but are oblivious to the idea that others might get hip and 3bet them light from the blinds.

And it probably goes without saying that 3betting, stop n going and go and going usually get you more chips than shoving to punish limpers

Re: ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete
 

I think this hand all comes down to a read. If you take in villain's limping range, and calling a shove range it's either +EV to shove or it isn't. I'm also a proponent of keeping things simple oop with a vulnerable hand. I think stacks dictate your action here. I might start to tinker with go and gos and what not, but once you get involved with stacks this short mtt becomes much more of a preflop game. Yes you'll run into some land mines when the 40/0 donk has AA but you'll also get calls from hands in pretty bad shape.