Renouncing US Citizenship
 

This is a serious question, I've done a little research without much in the way of promising results. Let's say I want to renounce US Citizenship because I strongly dislike the government. My grandparents were all born in the US, my great grandparents who I don't know and don't have records of were born in Russia except for one who was Polish. I'm Jewish but would rather another place not Israel.

As far as I can see, the first step to renouncing US citizenship is being a citizen elsewhere. But to be a citizen elsewhere I need to have parents or maybe grandparents born there, without that it's really hard to do it. Even in random poor 3rd world countries (example Costa Rica, Thailand), it is just as hard to become a citizen. Advice, what options do I have?

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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But to be a citizen elsewhere I need to have parents or maybe grandparents born there,

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That's not always true. Many countries have much less stringent requirements.

Just out of curiosity, is it the current people in the government you don't like, or the overall structure of the government (e.g. republic) you don't like?

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

I've kind of thought about doing this, but in my limitted research it's very difficult to get a citizenship somewhere that you would want to have citizenship (like in the EU for example).

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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But to be a citizen elsewhere I need to have parents or maybe grandparents born there,

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That's not always true. Many countries have much less stringent requirements.

Just out of curiosity, is it the current people in the government you don't like, or the overall structure of the government (e.g. republic) you don't like?

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Ganjasaurus Rex do you have any examples of those less stringent examples? After a quick look at the EU countries, Costa Rica, Thailand and China didn't see anything like what you are referring to.

Edit: what I don't like is that the government uses so much of my money (I believe around 50% now) to go to war and war like things.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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I've kind of thought about doing this, but in my limitted research it's very difficult to get a citizenship somewhere that you would want to have citizenship (like in the EU for example).

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Yup, what I saw too. Hopefully some people here can give us ideas! What was the reason you were thinking of doing it? It's a pretty big decision to make.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

I barely looked into this a while ago, but I think I remember reading somewhere that after you renounce your US citizenship, there's a chance you could never legally come back in the US, not even to visit. does anyone know if this is true?

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

I've got a basic plan in place to acquire EU citizenship in 5 years after I decide to go through with it. I haven't yet decided if I am going to end up going through with it and I haven't fleshed every detail out yet. If/when I decide to do it, I'll post details here.

Getting EU citizenship doesn't necessarily mean I'll give up my USA citizenship, however. I am undecided in that regard but would like EU citizenship for other obvious reasons.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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But to be a citizen elsewhere I need to have parents or maybe grandparents born there,

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That's not always true. Many countries have much less stringent requirements.

Just out of curiosity, is it the current people in the government you don't like, or the overall structure of the government (e.g. republic) you don't like?

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Ganjasaurus Rex do you have any examples of those less stringent examples? After a quick look at the EU countries, Costa Rica, Thailand and China didn't see anything like what you are referring to.

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EU countries will be more difficult, for obvious reasons. They don't want more immigrants. China is the same way.

However, there are many countries that will take people and give them citizenship if you pay for it. Countries like Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, etc, all have "rules" about how to go about it, and those "rules" may seem onerous, but you can bypass those "rules" with money placed in the right spots. During my time in Southeast Asia, i've known many people to change citizenship (most of them because they couldn't go back to the US or Canada for one reason or the other). Grease the right hands, and you get what you want.

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Edit: what I don't like is that the government uses so much of my money (I believe around 50% now) to go to war and war like things.

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Fair enough, but why make a lifetime commitment when this policy could change within your lifetime? It might even change with the next president. You never know. Once you denounce your US citizenship, then you're gone and no coming back.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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But to be a citizen elsewhere I need to have parents or maybe grandparents born there,

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That's not always true. Many countries have much less stringent requirements.

Just out of curiosity, is it the current people in the government you don't like, or the overall structure of the government (e.g. republic) you don't like?

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Ganjasaurus Rex do you have any examples of those less stringent examples? After a quick look at the EU countries, Costa Rica, Thailand and China didn't see anything like what you are referring to.

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EU countries will be more difficult, for obvious reasons. They don't want more immigrants. China is the same way.

However, there are many countries that will take people and give them citizenship if you pay for it. Countries like Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, etc, all have "rules" about how to go about it, and those "rules" may seem onerous, but you can bypass those "rules" with money placed in the right spots. During my time in Southeast Asia, i've known many people to change citizenship (most of them because they couldn't go back to the US or Canada for one reason or the other). Grease the right hands, and you get what you want.

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Edit: what I don't like is that the government uses so much of my money (I believe around 50% now) to go to war and war like things.

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Fair enough, but why make a lifetime commitment when this policy could change within your lifetime? It might even change with the next president. You never know. Once you denounce your US citizenship, then you're gone and no coming back.

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Hey Rex that is interesting, I'm interested in more details, like about what context you knew thoes people, how their lives went after making such a radical change? To respond to your point that the US government can change, throughout history all institutions (countries, also I'd say the same about people) that have had power, use their power to their advantage and do what they want to less powerful places. A change in government won't change anything. If I got out of the system it wouldn't change much admittedly, but I would be able to feel better about myself (i think).

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

You still have to pay taxes for 10 years if you ever want to visit again. I could imagine not living in the US again, but NEVER being able to go back to visit family, friends, Vegas, would be terrible. There are perks to being a US citizen abroad. If you get into trouble other than smuggling drugs or something, the government will help you out. If a war breaks out or there's a natural disaster, the US is focused on getting US citizens out of those areas. There are many countries where you can get a visa on arrival as a US citizen. I imagine it would be harder to get visas as a citizen of the Cayman Islands or something and you would have to get one every time you traveled.

It's difficult to got citizenship in a decent country without getting married. Australia, for example, loves immigrants, but first you have to be a permanent resident for 5 years, living in Australia, I believe, for 11 months of the year.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

I would recommend not choosing a random third world country. Not very many fat girls. In fact, given your love of fat girls, I really can't see how you could be happy anywhere else. Mexico, maybe?

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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Edit: what I don't like is that the government uses so much of my money (I believe around 50% now) to go to war and war like things.

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Fair enough, but why make a lifetime commitment when this policy could change within your lifetime? It might even change with the next president. You never know. Once you denounce your US citizenship, then you're gone and no coming back.

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Unlikely considering it's been going on for about a century.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

Be careful if you wish to renounce your U.S. citizenship. You need to do it right. Here is an excellent and brief article on the subject:



How do I renounce my U.S citizenship

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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But to be a citizen elsewhere I need to have parents or maybe grandparents born there,

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That's not always true. Many countries have much less stringent requirements.

Just out of curiosity, is it the current people in the government you don't like, or the overall structure of the government (e.g. republic) you don't like?

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Ganjasaurus Rex do you have any examples of those less stringent examples? After a quick look at the EU countries, Costa Rica, Thailand and China didn't see anything like what you are referring to.

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EU countries will be more difficult, for obvious reasons. They don't want more immigrants. China is the same way.

However, there are many countries that will take people and give them citizenship if you pay for it. Countries like Indonesia, Thailand, Philippines, etc, all have "rules" about how to go about it, and those "rules" may seem onerous, but you can bypass those "rules" with money placed in the right spots. During my time in Southeast Asia, i've known many people to change citizenship (most of them because they couldn't go back to the US or Canada for one reason or the other). Grease the right hands, and you get what you want.

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Edit: what I don't like is that the government uses so much of my money (I believe around 50% now) to go to war and war like things.

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Fair enough, but why make a lifetime commitment when this policy could change within your lifetime? It might even change with the next president. You never know. Once you denounce your US citizenship, then you're gone and no coming back.

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Hey Rex that is interesting, I'm interested in more details, like about what context you knew thoes people, how their lives went after making such a radical change? To respond to your point that the US government can change, throughout history all institutions (countries, also I'd say the same about people) that have had power, use their power to their advantage and do what they want to less powerful places. A change in government won't change anything. If I got out of the system it wouldn't change much admittedly, but I would be able to feel better about myself (i think).

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Most of the people i knew were either co-workers or friends i met at various clubs while i was in Southeast Asia. I don't have an exact count, but i would guess i've known close to 50 people who have changed citizenship. They gave various reasons, including trying to avoid criminal charges back home, tax reasons, marriage issues, trying not to lose their kids during divorces with local women, etc. Most of them seemed relatively happy with their decision, but keep in mind that almost all of them were choosing the lesser of two evils, and most of them had only made the decision within the past 5-10 years (i knew one guy who had changed citizenship 40 years prior and he was bitter). Of course, this is a small sample size. I'm not trying to convince you that it is a good or bad decision... my only point is that with money, it can be done.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

Do you have a list of countries where you approve of the governemnt and current policies? I guess it would suck if you went through all the trouble of renouncing your US Citizenship only to realize that you dislike your new government even more.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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Advice, what options do I have?

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I would consider looking into the Dominican Republic.

http://www.thedominicanrepublic.net/...formation.html

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In contrast, countries such as the Dominican Republic have a fairly simple and straight-forward process for obtaining residency, and the requirement is that an applicant demonstrate assets or investments equal to RD$500,000 Pesos, which is about US$16,000 under current exchange rates. So, doing something as simple as establishing a US Dollar Bank Certificate of Deposit (with a local bank) for a very affordable monetary amount will allow you to qualify. In addition, one can become a naturalized citizen within a fairly short period of time (in comparison to other countries) after having achieved Permanent Resident status.

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Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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I've got a basic plan in place to acquire EU citizenship in 5 years

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O RLY?

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I've got a basic plan in place to acquire EU citizenship in 5 years

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O RLY?

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Yes, really.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

Audi,

I wouldn't give up my USA citizenship for anything less than EU citizenship and even then I'm not so sure. The Dominican Republic as a sole citizenship is a laughable downgrade that someone would be crazy to take unless they were really in love with the Dominican Republic.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

if you marry an italian citizen, i think you can get EU citizenship 6 months later. if you get divorced, i dont know if you get to keep it.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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I've got a basic plan in place to acquire EU citizenship in 5 years after I decide to go through with it.

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To get a EU-citizenship you first have to beecome a citizen of one of the countries that are members of the Union. What country are you going for?

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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Edit: what I don't like is that the government uses so much of my money (I believe around 50% now) to go to war and war like things.

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Fair enough, but why make a lifetime commitment when this policy could change within your lifetime? It might even change with the next president. You never know. Once you denounce your US citizenship, then you're gone and no coming back.

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Unlikely considering it's been going on for about a century.

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Unlikely considering it's been going on in almost every country for the last 3000 years.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

There are probably some differences in the degree of difficulty of becoming citizen in different countries within the EU. Im not able to tell you where it would be easiest though, but maybe the poorer coutnries from the ole eastern europe are less concerned about protecting their system than wealthier countries in northern Europe.

I know Denmark are really strict now, they passed stricter immigration laws like 5 years ago or something. The son of the prime minister of Denmark is not able to move back to Denmark because he married an American woman and the couple had spent more time in US than in Denmark, making US the country where he by their definition is more connected to.

Greece on the other hand lets Americans who can document that their grandparents were Greek to attain citizenship.

You ought to be very motivated if you want to leave the US for the eastern EU-countries though.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

Most EU countries have much higher taxes then the states so I'm confused. If OP hates the government for taxing 50% of his income (which sounds wrong anyway) does he know he'll pay more tax in the EU then he does in the States?

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

Think he is more concerned about the amount of money going to the military and are spent on wars. None of the countries in EU comes close to the US in military spending, so if thats his biggest problem it make some sense. The problem is finding a country where the government where he approve of the policies, several of the countries in EU are involved in Afghanistan and/or Iraq.

But it seems that he hasnt limited it down to just EU, so he have several countries to pick from. In his first post he talked about grandparents from Russia, but if hes against governments that wage war he should stay away from that country. The other country where he has grandparents from is Poland, one of the countries in Europe who has been most supportive of the US policies after 9-11.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

Plus reading about Polish politics and their election it doesn't seem like a good choice.

Canada might work for him. Our military (which I support strongly) is in Afganistan but that is the first use in a very long time. It is also smaller then NYC police force.

I don't pay taxes but if I did I rather they go to defence then to useless social programs.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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Plus reading about Polish politics and their election it doesn't seem like a good choice.

Canada might work for him. Our military (which I support strongly) is in Afganistan but that is the first use in a very long time. It is also smaller then NYC police force.

I don't pay taxes but if I did I rather they go to defence then to useless social programs.

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yeah the problem for me isn't the high percent that goes bye bye in taxes but how its spent. also henry i wouldn't classify it as "defense" spending. talk on this subject is incredibly orwellien where everything really is backwards. our military goes to attack other countries not defend. or for instance the "war on terror", our country is the real terror, the terror done to us caused 2k deaths, we've caused far far more than that. anyway, besides the point

studying this issue brings up a couple interesting points. as someone mentioned, the US passport is really a good thing to have cause it lets us go wherever we want. on the other hand, countries (the US) are so full of s.hit when they talk about free trade. it's just free trade that allows money to come into the country, not people.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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on the other hand, countries (the US) are so full of s.hit when they talk about free trade. it's just free trade that allows money to come into the country, not people.

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Im not sure if I understand the last sentence. Do you mean that more people should be allowed to immigrate to the US? Because if thats your point you will really have a hard time finding a country where you would be satisified with the government. Can´t think of a western country that allows more poor immigrants into their country than the US.

And to your point about 50% being spent on war... you are greatly overestemating the cost of the wars that US are involved in.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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And to your point about 50% being spent on war... you are greatly overestemating the cost of the wars that US are involved in.

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Good point. Our entire military budget isn't even close to that, and a large percentage of the military budget has nothing to do with the current wars.

Total outlays are $2,387 billion. Iraq + Afganistan wars take up $161 billion. That is only 7% of the total budget. I'm not a fan of the Iraq war either, but it's best to know the facts before making major life decisions.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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on the other hand, countries (the US) are so full of s.hit when they talk about free trade. it's just free trade that allows money to come into the country, not people.

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Im not sure if I understand the last sentence. Do you mean that more people should be allowed to immigrate to the US? Because if thats your point you will really have a hard time finding a country where you would be satisified with the government. Can´t think of a western country that allows more poor immigrants into their country than the US.

And to your point about 50% being spent on war... you are greatly overestemating the cost of the wars that US are involved in.

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bedreviter, i wasn't clear and you are right that the US allows more immigration than most places. however with all the rhetoric about "free trade", it is really inconsistent to and unfair to have so many immigration laws... not relative to other countries, but relative to having true free trade.

here is a random and interesting link http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolit...e/Spending.asp
globalissues.com is a good site!

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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not relative to other countries, but relative to having true free trade.


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You are the one wanting to become a citizen of another country as a protest, so it should be pretty important to see how US is doing compared to other countries. I mean you dont want to look stupid and move to a country where you find that the government is even worse than the one you left your home country in protest of.

By all means, be critical of the government as much as you like, but as you see moving to another country as a way to take it a step further then the politics of your potential new home should be something you would like to look into as well.

And US doesnt have free trade, and noone claim they do. They have trade with restrictions and various trade-agreements, which they also have on the immigration policies.

Study different countries and make a list of those you feel satisfy your goals. If the restriction on immigration is a concern then you are basically out of candidates already. If violation of human rights is a concern then you have a very short list as well. If agressive use of military force is a problem then you have to take away quite a few countries. If restriction on the freedom of speech is something you care about then you also have a shortage of possibilities.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

Of course the U.S. is full of hypocricies and completely moronic policies. I disagree with a lot that this country is doing and am very seriously considering never voting again because I pretty much think the electoral process is a sham and a waste of everyone's time.
Yeah, I'm angry about some of the stupid crap and policies and am just plain sick of it so to that extent I'm somewhere approaching fatgirl-lover's position.

That doesn't mean that renouncing one's citizenship just to feel better on some principle is such a hot idea though.

It really is true that the passport is pretty damn valuable. And is also true that if you get into some kind of trouble elsewhere the U.S. will be more likely to help you then a lot of other countries.
The policies of many many other countries are completely idiotic even if they don't have the strength to waltz into an Iraq and start pushing people around. So they screw their own people more than running around screwing-over people outside their country. Not sure that's signficantly better.

Admittedly my views on this have changed in the past few years since dating a girl from Peru who will be extremely happy to finally get her U.S. citizenship in a few years.
It's a big headache trying to get into the U.S. legally but it's still easier than a lot of other countries and for those who are able to stick with it it's the dream of a lifetime.

They hold these Visa lotteries for other countries where they give away a handful of U.S. citizenships. Probably 0.1% or less of those who apply are granted citizenship I'm guessing.
GF had a relative who won and it was tears of joy and big celebrations throughout the whole family because everyone was so happy for her.

It's learning of stuff like this and I guess seeing it through her eyes somewhat that I realize how much I had always taken U.S. citzienship and the opportunities in this country for granted and probably still do although perhaps not quite so much.

I can't even begin to count the number of different ways I think the U.S. sucks. But the benefits of U.S. citizenship are just so huge.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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not relative to other countries, but relative to having true free trade.


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You are the one wanting to become a citizen of another country as a protest, so it should be pretty important to see how US is doing compared to other countries. I mean you dont want to look stupid and move to a country where you find that the government is even worse than the one you left your home country in protest of.

By all means, be critical of the government as much as you like, but as you see moving to another country as a way to take it a step further then the politics of your potential new home should be something you would like to look into as well.

And US doesnt have free trade, and noone claim they do. They have trade with restrictions and various trade-agreements, which they also have on the immigration policies.

Study different countries and make a list of those you feel satisfy your goals. If the restriction on immigration is a concern then you are basically out of candidates already. If violation of human rights is a concern then you have a very short list as well. If agressive use of military force is a problem then you have to take away quite a few countries. If restriction on the freedom of speech is something you care about then you also have a shortage of possibilities.

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yeah fair point that the other country should be better than here and i would be wise not to mess that point up. however, my point about free trade is a sidepoint, simply that people that talk about free trade are huge hypocrites or liars. there is a difference between this and war, war is about actively doing harm to other people. restrictive immigration laws is about NOT HELPING other people out, and that is okay with me (though in this case i think the only people we are hurting is ourselves). also i really disagree that regarding the US and free trade - "noone claim they do".

re: your last paragraph, i personally think war is the worst evil by far by far (although we already great freedom of speech laws). i'm kind of thinking now, i want to do good but the world isn't really set up for that, even if i really want to it is hard for me so maybe that takes away the culpability. what do you think? also what do you think are some good countries to live in?

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

good post microbob. "But the benefits of U.S. citizenship are just so huge." that is a problem though, the way you wrote the sentence which i think is the truth. i think the benefits have to be passed up for moral reasons, but as you say the benefits are so big and we have so much to lose by passing them up it's hard to.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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what do you think? also what do you think are some good countries to live in?

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Im hoping to get to stay in the US when Im done with school (Im from Norway), so I guess Im not the right person to ask [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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good post microbob. "But the benefits of U.S. citizenship are just so huge." that is a problem though, the way you wrote the sentence which i think is the truth. i think the benefits have to be passed up for moral reasons, but as you say the benefits are so big and we have so much to lose by passing them up it's hard to.

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It's not just about keeping it for the benefits in spite of all the evil crap even though I believe I made it sound that way.

The U.S. does get some things right and does indeed do some good in spite of all their hyporicy and horrible policies.

Allowing themsleves to continue to be a land of opportunity even with significant immigration limitations, etc in there and also the bit about freedom of speech and expression even though most of the country doesn't seem to get that are still a couple of significant reasons why the U.S. ain't ALL bad.

Land of the Free seems like a ridiculous slogan when the government is specifically telling me that they don't want me playing internet-poker. I have a lot of other problems with the U.S.
But then I just start to feel ridiculous about it all when my GF tells me of times when they had to wait in line for hours and hours for rationed bread or sugar because there was some wacky political coup or overthrow and her whole country was a total disaster.

Now her country is doing better partly due to more trade with the U.S.
But she has cousins in their late 20's with decent jobs who make $300/mth which is an acceptable salary there. They are just expected to continue living with the rest of their family because they couldn't possibly live on their own.

So she looks at me with my complaints about the U.S. and even when she doesn't say anything I kind of feel ridiculous because it's obvious that my almost petty principle-issues of "the government sucks and they're all morons" are nothing compared with some of the problems of some of the other countries with 50% REAL poverty or whatever and who look up to the U.S. not only as the world's super-power AND as the land of opportunity.
Not to mention the fact that there are plenty of incredibly incompetent politicians in other countries. Her Dad goes on and on about all the idiots who keep screwing up any chance her old country has to do better.

So it's not just the realization that I have really been taking for granted the advantages of being an American but also realizing how the U.S. truly does do some really good things too and I guess taking a little more pride in being an American as a result.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

If you gave individuals the choice of any country to be a citizen of I am positive the US would be picked most often and would represent about 40-60% of the global vote. You have that and want to give it up. Doesn't make sense to me unless you are really young and naive.

Re: Renouncing US Citizenship
 

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If you gave individuals the choice of any country to be a citizen of I am positive the US would be picked most often and would represent about 40-60% of the global vote. You have that and want to give it up. Doesn't make sense to me unless you are really young and naive.

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Random appeal to majority. All most of those 40-60% know is that even the poor in American are rich and fat. This doesn't mean it's actually a better place to live than elsewhere.