T9s trips river fold
 

CO is 40/7/0.7 over 50 hands
UTG is 31/13/2 over 1000+ hands

PokerStars $5/$10 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#FF0000">UTG raises</font>, MP folds, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Flop: (7.00 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#FF0000">UTG bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">UTG 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#FF0000">Hero caps!</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#FF0000">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (15.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#FF0000">CO bets</font>, Hero folds

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

ugh, Looks like we're [censored]. but thats a 14BB pot. I hate to give up on a pot that size if theres even a small chance of winning

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

This hurts my eyes. Folding this river seems extremely bad in a 6BB pot let alone a 15BB one. You have 50 hands on this guy, this is a really small sample of hands to judge someones play let alone make this laydown. I've seen plenty of "passive" 50/5/0.7 guys do weird things, certainly more often than the 6% you need here.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

online poker is not about making super folds.

You beat 96, don't fold.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

Yeah, Id call and wouldnt feel too bad if I lost. I also think pf is pretty bad. Stars has a 2/5 structure, right?

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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Yeah, Id call and wouldnt feel too bad if I lost. I also think pf is pretty bad. Stars has a 2/5 structure, right?

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i didn't even look at PF.

PF is lmaousuck

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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Yeah, Id call and wouldnt feel too bad if I lost. I also think pf is pretty bad. Stars has a 2/5 structure, right?

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i didn't even look at PF.

PF is lmaousuck

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wow really? looks like i found a leak. what's your minimum for suited connectors here?

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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Yeah, Id call and wouldnt feel too bad if I lost. I also think pf is pretty bad. Stars has a 2/5 structure, right?

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i didn't even look at PF.

PF is lmaousuck

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wow really? looks like i found a leak. what's your minimum for suited connectors here?

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Im always playing KQs. KJs is close.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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Yeah, Id call and wouldnt feel too bad if I lost. I also think pf is pretty bad. Stars has a 2/5 structure, right?

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I don't fold KQs. And really, if you have a raise and 2 cold callers, then T9s is close.

I'm sure other ppl will tell you this is an easy call, but wth an UTG raiser who has a PFR of 13, I think it's a fold.

If it goes raise, call, call, call, then I'm calling with T9s allday


i didn't even look at PF.

PF is lmaousuck

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wow really? looks like i found a leak. what's your minimum for suited connectors here?

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Re: T9s trips river fold
 

I'm also lmaousuck too obviously becuase I just don't see how pf is that horrendous, are you saying he should instafold here?

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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I'm also lmaousuck too obviously becuase I just don't see how pf is that horrendous, are you saying he should instafold here?

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1. Our hand is dominated a lot by a UTG raiser.
2. Especially vs one with 13 pfr
3. Stars has a 2/5 blind structure.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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I'm also lmaousuck too obviously becuase I just don't see how pf is that horrendous, are you saying he should instafold here?

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You aren't dominated per se, but you are basically cold calling over 1.5 bets in the worst possible position.

So yes, this is an instamuck.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

LOL @ folding preflop

Take it out of hypernit Hip [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

We do agree on river tho. 97, 96 and expert AA, KK. Dont fold.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

no dont fold

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

Once the CO coldcalls 2 bets on the flop I would put him on a flush draw or 9 (and maybe 33). I strongly lean towards a flush draw since a 9 would probably just cap it. I doubt that UTG will suddenly check the turn after raising preflop and 3-betting the flop. So, I think I want to see a non-diamond turn and try to CR the field instead of 4-betting the flop and leading the turn.

Another alternative is to call the 3-bet and donk a non-diamond turn and hope that UTG will raise so you can 3-bet.

Once the diamond hits on the turn you are just praying that CO somehow has 98 or 97 because that's generally all you beat on that turn based on CO's flop action. Therefore, it's probably best to check-call 1 bet on the turn and fold if it goes bet-raise.

Also, keep in mind that UTG could be on a flush draw based on his flop action, further reducing your chances of being ahead when this turn card hits.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

I think the chance CO has AA here alone is enough to call. I don't think preflop is bad if there's a reasonable chance BB comes along as well.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

Do... Not... Fold...

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

UGH!!!!

CO hit his flush so even tho this looks awful, i have to fold there. Not to mention that UTG may have an A9 which puts you in bad shape also...nh.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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Do... Not... Fold...

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What if we have it tagged that CO is not an expert player. if he's a call station he can't have anything BUT a flush here.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

I'd fold preflop with the 2/5 structure. With another caller in it's an easy call. As for the river, I suppose you were 93% sure you were beat?

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

The most likely hand for UTG is an overpair.
CO's range is a flush, 9x or a boat.

We have 18.4% equity vs CO's range. That's enough to call.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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The most likely hand for UTG is an overpair.
CO's range is a flush, 9x or a boat.

We have 18.4% equity vs CO's range. That's enough to call.

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**** poker stove, we have trips in a 14BB pot

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

Oh yeah I forgot its a 2/5 blind structure

Obviously makes preflop worse/less good. With a loose/bad BB I still call tho. If BB is tough I can prolly find a fold - altho its not exactly my forté

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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Oh yeah I forgot its a 2/5 blind structure

Obviously makes preflop worse/less good. With a loose/bad BB I still call tho. If BB is tough I can prolly find a fold - altho its not exactly my forté

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with a 2/3 structure, I'm calling PF. I'm not a supernit, just a nit [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

Call this river every time. That was a bad fold. Also pf is ok. If cutoff does not cold call then I fold but as is you played it fine (until the river).

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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Therefore, it's probably best to check-call 1 bet on the turn and fold if it goes bet-raise.[/quote

uggh. We flop a monster, build a big pot, the turn check is so.....every gets a good chance to out draw us?

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

I must say I am a little surprised that the vast majority of responders say that this fold is bad.

Normally I call in this spot, but I think I was swayed by the responses in PJ's recent "massive hero fold" where he folded the nut straight on the river getting 25:1 when I donked the rivered flush.

Shortly thereafter, I posted "massivish hero fold part two" thread where where I folded top two pair on the river getting like 25:1 where it was 'obvious' that my two pair was counterfeited.

In both of those threads, the overwhelming responses were 'that is a good fold', or 'easy fold', even though the OP in each thread was getting much better odds than I was in this particular hand.

I think the mistake I made in this hand was giving the player with donky-ish stats too much credit, as opposed to when PJ 'believed' that I had the flush every time because I am a "solid player" and played the hand exactly like a flush.

So, when you are in a spot like this vs a relatively unknown villain with donkeyish stats do you usually assign like 10-20% of his range to shenanigans?

River: CO bets, Hero folds, UTG calls.
Showdown: CO shows 55. Ship the pot to UTG's TT.

[censored] my [censored] you son of a [censored]! [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Nothing tilts me like folding the winner.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

I've just been following this thread a little, but your post above is correct. multitable tag grinders are the most trustworthy opponents you can find. obv they still make moves, but like in PJs or one of heisenbergs river folds, you can be almost 100% sure of your fold based on the actions of a tag and pass up very long odds on a call.

fwiw, when I first read the hand, my instinct was you madea good fold. Howvever, this is also a leak of mine; I occasionally use bad judgment in spots like this and tend to be too foldy.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

Players saying that this is a call PF are overestimating their postflop expectation.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

but still, it is ten nine suited. it has to be close. pairs are good in Lhe and this hand can make decent ones, flushes, and the max # of straights.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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Therefore, it's probably best to check-call 1 bet on the turn and fold if it goes bet-raise.

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uggh. We flop a monster, build a big pot, the turn check is so.....every gets a good chance to out draw us?

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Based on my analysis I believe we are behind on the turn and that our hand becomes the hand that is drawing. I really don't care if I've thrown a billion bets in the pot. If I'm drawing I don't want to bet unless it has fold equity or gets me a free card. Neither apply here so I check.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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Players saying that this is a call PF are overestimating their postflop expectation.

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No they are not.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

Can we stop talking about pf please, cause it is close to irrelevant in this hand. If it is a mistake, it's a very small one, as opposed to heros river fold that cost him 17.5BB (yes, I think UTG is overcalling).

efficacy,
I'm not saying I think this is very easy decision at the table. The action certainly tells us that we should be beat. I just think you need better reads to make hero-folds like these.

And if you stove it you'll see that it's an easy decision.

Edit: Happy bday!

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

hero's fold didn't cost him 17.5 bb lol. if it cost him 17.5 bb do you think he'd fold there (winning 100% of the time)?

evne if you assume hero wins 10% of the time (he doesn't), this fold costs a whole 0.85 bets.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

I call PF because I like to be in pots with bad players...

I have no idea if its -EV or not (and neither do you), but I like to play poker, my hand looks pretty, and im getting odds to play postlfop with a bad player.
It also slightly depends on BB... If BB is loose/bad and not likely to re-raise, its an easy call IMO.

River the fold is pretty bad, because semi-passive players show up with overpairs here.
I saw the results, but when I first saw the fold I thought "I wouldnt be surprised to see CO show up with AA"

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

AA and what he actually had are all very unlikely. the flush fits perfectly with every street. everything else needs to be discounted a lot (AA based on every street for instance).

also just wanted to mention i love how UTG 3-bets the flop with tens here. heheheeeeeeee

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

We see a flop of AA - TT with a diamond here. We can also beat a busted flush (AK, one diamond). Plus, the pot is freaking huge. Super easy call.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

Since I read all the thread I know the results.
To be honest I never ever fold river because I just cannot.
But even before I looked at the results my first thought was that this guy either has a hand that beats T9 or that he has nothing.
If you put him on a "real hand" then I don´t think the river fold is such an outrageous fold.Because most strong hands that hero beats would just be happy to get to showdown and the action so far strongly indicates that if villain has a strong hand it is a flush.
But the idiot factor in Internet Holdem makes it impossible to fold a river like this unless you have a really really strong read.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

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hero's fold didn't cost him 17.5 bb lol. if it cost him 17.5 bb do you think he'd fold there (winning 100% of the time)?

evne if you assume hero wins 10% of the time (he doesn't), this fold costs a whole 0.85 bets.

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Even if that is a correct analysis about average calculated cost facing a lot of similar decisions ,the fact remains that the actual cost of Hero:s river fold this hand is 17.5 BB. So you can´t say that Wolfram was wrong claiming this.

Re: T9s trips river fold
 

Apanage,
I was thinking about Miles' comment and he is actually right imo.

The fold is not a 17.5BB mistake. Saying that is results oriented.