Two Plus Two Newer Archives - J8s 6-max playalong

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marchron

04-22-2007 01:17 PM

J8s 6-max playalong

My last and heretofore only playalong sucked yaks. I don't care; this one will be good.

Let's introduce the cast of characters:
SB is a bad TAG.
BB is awesome: he plays damn near A2C preflop, and the only times he's not calling down with any piece is when he thinks his opponents are weak, in which case he bets/raises with any piece.
UTG is your garden-variety moron.
MP is not quite as awesome as BB, but close; he's not so aggressive with any piece, but he'll call down with any draw, including unimproved pocket pairs.
CO is a solid TAG and the bane of my existence at this table. I wanted his seat, and the awesome position he had on the three stooges in front of him, but he got there first. He iso-raises plenty — in fact, in a later hand he iso-raised KTo, I folded KT[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], the board came 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and he made an awesome value 3-bet vs. UTG on the river with a straight despite the obvious flush draw to win, and I cursed the fact that I didn't get in and make a straight flush. His only weakness is that he's weak-tight postflop with UI overs; he usually check/folds. This has enabled me to get some money off him when he tries stealing my blinds.

UltimateBet 2/4 (6-max, 6-handed)

Preflop: marchron is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, MP calls, CO raises, marchron . . .

I have the button; I have a PFR who's known to raise light; I have a solid multi-way hand that's not likely to be utterly dominated; I can reasonably expect to have at least a five-way pot for two bets. Question One: do you make the dreaded coldcall?

fretelÃ¶o

04-22-2007 01:39 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Uh. No. Your 2gappers str8 potential is seriously crippled and you'll have to worry about OCs very often. Sorry, I fold and go make a sandwich.

Buzz-cp

04-22-2007 01:44 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

assuming BB is not a gamblor 3-betting with junk, you're only getting 8:2 preflop. Sometimes tag will come along and it's 10:2. The problem is the tag is going to be raising any donk's flop bet usually forcing you to fold. Wait for another hand.

Buzz

bennyhana

04-22-2007 01:48 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

ok, this is one of those hands, at one of those tables, where cold calling has some value.

nomadtla

04-22-2007 01:52 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Give me QJs-78s and yes. I just think we are too weak to make a cold call here.

But I am just starting to play 6 max and am a weenie.

marchron

04-22-2007 01:53 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

[ QUOTE ]
assuming BB is not a gamblor 3-betting with junk, you're only getting 8:2 preflop. Sometimes tag will come along and it's 10:2. The problem is the tag is going to be raising any donk's flop bet usually forcing you to fold. Wait for another hand.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]
BB could three-bet, but I doubt it, as I also doubt either of the first two limpers pulling a LRR.

Edit: duhhhhhh.

Buzz-cp

04-22-2007 02:06 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

[ QUOTE ]
But I count five sure entries into this pot (everybody but SB), giving me 10½-2 effective odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are counting yourself there in the pot odds--you have 4 in vs you. that's 8.5 to your 2 bets to call.

kaby	04-22-2007 02:12 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

I fold.

Would you even think about coldcalling T7s here? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

marchron

04-22-2007 02:14 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I count five sure entries into this pot (everybody but SB), giving me 10½-2 effective odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are counting yourself there in the pot odds--you have 4 in vs you. that's 8.5 to your 2 bets to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, Jesus Christ. Duhhhhh.

fretelÃ¶o

04-22-2007 02:17 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Ok, we've established now that no one but you likes a cold call. Let's see a flop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

marchron

04-22-2007 02:37 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Excellent idea. I coldcall, SB folds, BB and the limpers call, as expected.

BB bets/raises with any piece until he meets resistance, then he calls down with any piece.
UTG is your garden-variety moron.
MP calls down with any draw, including unimproved pocket pairs.
CO is a solid TAG, but is weak-tight postflop with UI overs.

UltimateBet 2/4 (6-max, 6-handed)

Preflop: marchron is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, MP calls, CO raises, marchron calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10.5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, MP calls, CO folds, marchron . . .

Niiiiiice. This will be somewhat short, but after that last decision, some unanimity would be good.

bennyhana

04-22-2007 03:04 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent idea. I coldcall, SB folds, BB and the limpers call, as expected.

BB bets/raises with any piece until he meets resistance, then he calls down with any piece.
UTG is your garden-variety moron.
MP calls down with any draw, including unimproved pocket pairs.
CO is a solid TAG, but is weak-tight postflop with UI overs.

UltimateBet 2/4 (6-max, 6-handed)

Preflop: marchron is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, MP calls, CO raises, marchron calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10.5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, MP calls, CO folds, marchron . . .

Niiiiiice. This will be somewhat short, but after that last decision, some unanimity would be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

easy raise

xJames2112

04-22-2007 03:07 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Raise it up

nomadtla

04-22-2007 03:15 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

one of the best flops you can get.

Laise dat ish

lautzutao

04-22-2007 03:24 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

If you're coldcalling w/ this crap you better be raising here [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] It's about as perfect a flop as you could hope for.

marchron

04-22-2007 03:29 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Thought so.

BB bets/raises with any piece until he meets resistance, then he calls down with any piece.
UTG is your garden-variety moron.
MP calls down with any draw, including unimproved pocket pairs.

UltimateBet 2/4 (6-max, 6-handed)

Preflop: marchron is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, MP calls, CO raises, marchron calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10.5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, MP calls, CO folds, marchron raises, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP calls, marchron . . .

I say:

http://adactio.com/galleries/bologna...cappuccino.jpg

What say you?

bennyhana

04-22-2007 03:31 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

purrrfect

BigBadBabar

04-22-2007 03:32 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

bus to captown pls

nomadtla

04-22-2007 03:37 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

I say

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/6...dsoxhathb6.jpg IT

marchron

04-22-2007 03:47 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Okay, that was the dull part. Now it gets interesting.

BB bets/raises with any piece until he meets resistance, then he calls down with any piece.
UTG is your garden-variety moron.
MP calls down with any draw, including unimproved pocket pairs.

UltimateBet 2/4 (6-max, 6-handed)

Preflop: marchron is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, MP calls, CO raises, marchron calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10.5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, MP calls, CO folds, marchron raises, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP calls, marchron caps, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, marchron . . .

I think I can skip this part, too.

. . . marchron raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP 3-bets, marchron . . .

Okay, so I have the second nuts. While it's possible that everyone has an 8, I'm obviously losing to T8, and I can't put it past any of these clowns to have that. I'm freerolling anyone who has an 8, but if someone has a higher flush draw, the best I can do is chop.

But Mr. I-Call-With-Any-Draw has now bet/3-bet me. Who's on the bus to Captown now?

lautzutao

04-22-2007 03:48 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Again, easy raise. Your equity is high here w/ 3 along for the ride, pump the pot as much as possible.

BigBadBabar

04-22-2007 03:49 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

where's boz when you need him, lol [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

bennyhana

04-22-2007 03:51 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

yeah, with that many callers, you start accumulating Sklansky bucks as fast as you can.

lautzutao

04-22-2007 03:53 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

You said it yourself, you're probably on a freeroll("good" player calling T8 preflop from EP...?) w/ you drawing to a flush still. You have two people padding the pot for you, and there's nothing to say that if they ARE drawing to a flush it's better than yours. 4bet.

marchron

04-22-2007 04:07 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

[ QUOTE ]
You said it yourself, you're probably on a freeroll("good" player calling T8 preflop from EP...?) w/ you drawing to a flush still. You have two people padding the pot for you, and there's nothing to say that if they ARE drawing to a flush it's better than yours. 4bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
None of my opponents are "good." Of the two good players, one folded preflop and one folded on the flop.

I guess I'm a wuss then. I did cap, but I thought it was closer.

BB bets/raises with any piece until he meets resistance, then he calls down with any piece.
UTG is your garden-variety moron.
MP calls down with any draw, including unimproved pocket pairs.

UltimateBet 2/4 (6-max, 6-handed)

Preflop: marchron is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, MP calls, CO raises, marchron calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10.5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, MP calls, CO folds, marchron raises, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP calls, marchron caps, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, marchron raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP 3-bets, marchron caps, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

River: (29 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, marchron . . .

No improvement; just a one-card straight. Anybody see any value in a raise, or should I just go for the overcalls?

BigBadBabar

04-22-2007 04:10 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

call going for overcalls, he knows you have a straight and still bets into you

lautzutao

04-22-2007 04:15 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Well now you're splitting at best, so there's no value in raising. Call and hope the other 2 follow suit.

Buzz-cp

04-22-2007 04:28 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

cap turn & go for overcalls on turn. everyone has said it all.

marchron

04-22-2007 05:09 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Well, [censored]. I thought this would be more interesting.

UltimateBet 2/4 (6-max, 6-handed)

Preflop: marchron is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, MP calls, CO raises, marchron calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10.5 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, MP calls, CO folds, marchron raises, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP calls, marchron caps, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (13 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, marchron raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP 3-bets, marchron caps, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

River: (29 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, marchron calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 31.5 BB (after rake)
MP had 8h Ts for the nuts, BB had 4c 7h for the idiot end.

Hey Fritos, got any more of those sandwiches?

ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S

04-22-2007 05:25 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

worst. playalong. ever.

Dr. Matt

04-22-2007 05:37 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

hells yea preflop I either 3-bet the sucka and take charge (which I prefer) or puss out and cold-call.

Dr. Matt

04-22-2007 05:39 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Flop is an easy raise!! VALUETOWN!!

Dr. Matt

04-22-2007 05:40 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

after the 3-bet with all that dead money in, capping sounds wonderful.

Dr. Matt

04-22-2007 05:43 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

easiest decisions ever for a playalong.

bozlax

04-22-2007 07:17 PM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

[ QUOTE ]
where's boz when you need him, lol [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I was in Sandy Eggo playing lacrosse and drinking beer for the weekend.

[ QUOTE ]
My last and heretofore only playalong sucked yaks. I don't care; this one will be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right...this one did a much better job of sucking yaks. The only decision that could really be considered marginal (preflop) you probably got wrong (hence, you didn't play expertly); the dreaded double-whammy of Playalong Rules violations.

marchron

04-23-2007 12:45 AM

Re: J8s 6-max playalong

Sigh.

If anyone wants to talk more about preflop, I will, but with that table and the reads I had, I'm coldcalling that 100% of the time and I'm not ashamed to say it.

My real question is the turn. I said that I capped and I thought it was marginal, but after further reflection I like it even less.

Babar wins the thread (yeah, not much of a prize) for this:

[ QUOTE ]
he knows you have a straight and still bets into you

[/ QUOTE ]
He was speaking on the river play, but I think it's applicable to the turn as well: he knows I have a straight and still bet/3-bet me. With two other dummies padding the pot, raising any 8x is right, but he's passive, which means he's not raising just 8x. The only way he can have a straight and a chance to improve his hand is if he has J8; otherwise, I think he has T8 for the nuts an awful lot of the time.

Now we come to me. I have eleven outs to beat T8, which doesn't even give me enough equity to raise on its own; furthermore, if I don't improve I'm only winning half the pot; also, a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] doesn't give me the nuts.

So I think the turn cap was bad.

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