200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

Villain is 34/16/1 over only 75 hands. No history as such but seems a bit fishy.

I likey my hand and want to get it in but what do I do on the flop?

Party Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $414.65
MP: $202
CO: $210.50
Hero (BTN): $393.15
SB: $151.15
BB: $532

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG calls $2, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $10</font>, SB folds, BB calls $8, UTG calls $8

Flop: ($31) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $26</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $74</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">UTG raises to $404.65 and is All-In</font>, Hero ????

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

auto-call.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

OK. Give your reasoning.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

What range do you give him here?

I think 98 is most likely, and sets are possible of course.

Do you think he'd do this with something like JT? Or a worse flush draw?

If you think that he would, then call. As deep as it is, I'm inclined to fold. If he's already ahead, he probably has boat outs to make you lose even if you hit.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

FWIW, calling and folding are pretty close. but if you're going to raise, then I think u should probably stack off. None-the-less, there might be merit in folding, since he seems to be fishy and their might be better places to get his money.

However, if you're going to raise and fold to a 3-bet, it might just be better to float the flop, so u don't get pushed off your big draw.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

Agree with Paul 100%, if you're going to raise the flop you need to be ok getting the money in. Otherwise just call and see the turn. You can bluff later in the hand if you don't hit anyway since this guy isn't the king of hand reading lol

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

You really want to get it in with a draw for 200bb with villain shoving?!
Don`t know if I would be able to fold to his shove, but I just have a bad feeling about calling here.

I like calling his bet on the flop...You are deep and having postion + a ton of implied odds. In addition to that BB might have a medium strong hand and call which adds some dead money to the pot if you hit your flush.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Agree with Paul 100%, if you're going to raise the flop you need to be ok getting the money in. Otherwise just call and see the turn. You can bluff later in the hand if you don't hit anyway since this guy isn't the king of hand reading lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

I think saying that you should float the flop is a little results-based. Obviously, since our flop raise got over-shoved, of COURSE we shoulda just called the flop!

In general, I agree that you should feel okay about getting bet-3bai if you're going to raise the flop. But for the BIG push all-in, I think you HAVE to consider that his most likely holdings are sets and two pairs that don't want to see more cards on this board.

Given that you raised the flop (which is fine of course), I think folding is clearly better than calling here.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

Meh... I don't really like how you played this one. I prefer a very large raise with this particular hand on the flop as well as with sets/top two for balance.

My reasoning is that I want to get the money in against most hands, but I don't want to be put in a position that a fold is likely correct against his now (once he shoves) greatly reduced range - two pair and sets mostly. Raising large on the flop (at least pot) will increase your fold equity, which I don't mind with a big draw. It also bloats the pot while we are often a favorite on teh flop as our hand plays much poorer on the turn if he calls our flop raise. Let's say he has AA here and you make your size raise. What does villain do? He calls or pushes quite often. Now say you raise huge, Villain finds a fold here every now and then to the larger raise, which is great because we are flipping with most big pairs and a slight dog to AA so every time you force him out, you are winning money. Last, but not least, if he does shove over the top, it makes much more sense to call with the better odds we have.

Well, now that I've got that out of my system, I'd call here. But, I'm a big fish and I call huge bets with just flush draws. It's all about style baby.

soda

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

This is a call, but I think it's close because it's so deep and I think this guy's range is heavily weighted towards sets because he's fairly passive postflop. It would be easier if you had raised more. I probably make it 100 or 110.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Meh... I don't really like how you played this one. I prefer a very large raise with this particular hand on the flop as well as with sets/top two for balance.

My reasoning is that I want to get the money in against most hands, but I don't want to be put in a position that a fold is likely correct against his now (once he shoves) greatly reduced range - two pair and sets mostly. Raising large on the flop (at least pot) will increase your fold equity, which I don't mind with a big draw. It also bloats the pot while we are often a favorite on teh flop as our hand plays much poorer on the turn if he calls our flop raise. Let's say he has AA here and you make your size raise. What does villain do? He calls or pushes quite often. Now say you raise huge, Villain finds a fold here every now and then to the larger raise, which is great because we are flipping with most big pairs and a slight dog to AA so every time you force him out, you are winning money. Last, but not least, if he does shove over the top, it makes much more sense to call with the better odds we have.

Well, now that I've got that out of my system, I'd call here. But, I'm a big fish and I call huge bets with just flush draws. It's all about style baby.

soda

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you make an important point if you are going to raise this flop you want to raise a lot to give yourself better odds the times the villian pushes because you are so deep.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

...But by raising a lot on the flop, WHEN Villain comes over the top now we KNOW we're destroyed. We're chasing a flush that can still lose.

I think him coming over the top of a normal raise tells us all we need to know, and the pot math says folding is better than calling at that point.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

Seems we are divided. Most importantly for me was whether it would be mathematically correct to call the all in?
I don't like putting a big chunk of my stack in only to fold to a shove.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]
...But by raising a lot on the flop, WHEN Villain comes over the top now we KNOW we're destroyed. We're chasing a flush that can still lose.

I think him coming over the top of a normal raise tells us all we need to know, and the pot math says folding is better than calling at that point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say you're destroyed when you have the nut flush draw on an unpaired board. Also, he could definately be pushing worse flush draws here.

What would you raise with your sets here? That is how much you should riase in this situation. If you have a set here you certainly should raise big.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

ya I play sets and big draws the same

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think saying that you should float the flop is a little results-based. Obviously, since our flop raise got over-shoved, of COURSE we shoulda just called the flop!

In general, I agree that you should feel okay about getting bet-3bai if you're going to raise the flop. But for the BIG push all-in, I think you HAVE to consider that his most likely holdings are sets and two pairs that don't want to see more cards on this board.

Given that you raised the flop (which is fine of course), I think folding is clearly better than calling here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really disagree with you on this. When we raise/fold this flop we are counting on him either folding or just calling most of the time. With this villain I don't think we can make that assumption. In fact I think his reaction to our raise is going to be almost completely shove/fold. So if we're raising it should be for value/to get the money in and not to fold to a raise. With shallower stacks I like raising and getting the money in. But since I'm not comfortable getting so much money in with just the bare nfd I think calling is much better. There are a lot of cards we can bluff with later on in the hand if villain shows weakness and if he does have a monster we'll get a decent chunk of his stackj if we hit our flush.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

This deep, I flat the flop. This deep, if you are reraising, it must be with intention of felting this flop, which I am not comfortable doing. After he comes over the top, his range has narrowed enough to where it beats you, and being this deep you don't have the odds to play for stacks. Folding obv sucks, so calling is best imo.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

I have stoved this. The best equity I can find is 33%. And this is being generous by including some slow played KK.

I think the "CORRECT" decision should have been to fold to the push. However I called.

$309.15 and is All-In

Turn: ($797.30) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($797.30) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $797.30 Pot ($3 Rake)
UTG showed 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a flush, Nine high) and LOST (-$393.15 NET)
Hero showed J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a flush, Ace high) and WON $794.30 (+$401.15 NET)

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

OP, villain donks and you didnt plan for his 3bet? wtf?

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have stoved this. The best equity I can find is 33%. And this is being generous by including some slow played KK.

I think the "CORRECT" decision should have been to fold to the push. However I called.

$309.15 and is All-In

Turn: ($797.30) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($797.30) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $797.30 Pot ($3 Rake)
UTG showed 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a flush, Nine high) and LOST (-$393.15 NET)
Hero showed J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a flush, Ace high) and WON $794.30 (+$401.15 NET)

[/ QUOTE ]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

15,840 games 0.005 secs 3,168,000 games/sec

Board: 2h 9d 8d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.354% 40.35% 00.00% 6392 0.00 { AdJd }
Hand 1: 59.646% 59.65% 00.00% 9448 0.00 { AA, 99-88, 22, KdQd, KdTd, QdTd, Td8d, 8d6d, 7d6d }

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

just curious, but what ranges did you put for him?

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

raising flop with these stacks is pretty bad imo.

100bb is perfect,
300bb+ is good too, but your stacks are just too awkward

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

I agree with shpanko on this one.

As played, you've gotta fold the flop. You have an average of maybe 10.5 outs, and given that you're not getting the right odds.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

think about what hands UTG is betting that flop with, and which of those hands he's folding to hero's super weak raise.... ya, none of them.
so either make it like 125 and be happy calling a shove, or just call. And i prefer calling this deep. especailly becaue PF limp/callers usally hav huge hands when they donk the flop for full pot

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have stoved this. The best equity I can find is 33%. And this is being generous by including some slow played KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf range are you giving him?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

49,500 games 0.015 secs 3,300,000 games/sec

Board: 2d 9d 8h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 41.840% 41.79% 00.05% 20684 27.00 { AdJd }
Hand 1: 58.160% 58.11% 00.05% 28762 27.00 { 88+, 22, Kd8d, Qd8d, Jd8d, Td8d, 98s, 8d7d, 8d6d, 8d5d, 7d6d, 6d5d, 98o }

My range is a little wide probably but at worst we're going to have like 38-40% equity against his range. TT+ may seem unlikely, but he also likely raises 88-99 preflop as well and his play reeks of a draw / scared overpair imo more than a set. I think 89 is a very likely hand here as well.

It's a marginal decision, but it's +EV and you should call.

I also do not like raising the flop, we don't want to chase out inferior draws behind us and if you really think villain is looking to bet/3bet a set or two pair then you obviously don't want to give him that opportunity.

Plus raise/folding the NFD with these stacks is gross.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]

Plus raise/folding the NFD with these stacks is gross.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love this statement you made here because I believe it is true no matter your strategy. I try very hard to be an idiot and as such I'm perceived very very often as an idiot. I'm happy to get it all in even this deep in such a spot. But even if you are a solid tag (whose game I totally respect BTW), you still do NOT want to raise this flop and then fold. Pick a better line.

soda

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP, villain donks and you didnt plan for his 3bet? wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

What a ridiculous and unhelpful comment, please don't bother posting in future. I called his bet u muppet but on reflection thought that a fold might have been the correct decision.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

It's a 3bet not a 4bet.

And fold.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's a 3bet not a 4bet.

And fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the correction. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Please elaborate on "and fold". Again.. simple statements such as this are not particularly helpful.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a 3bet not a 4bet.

And fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the correction. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Please elaborate on "and fold". Again.. simple statements such as this are not particularly helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind raising at all. people saying flat call this deep are being results oriented. It's a clear fold though when villain shoves because we simply do not have enough equity to call.

also people saying villains reaction to our raise is polarized towards folding/shoving? Where did this come from.

this guy is a huge station. his most likely action is CALL.

OP, raise/fold was the right play and sometimes you have to make big folds. this is one of those times.

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]

also people saying villains reaction to our raise is polarized towards folding/shoving? Where did this come from.

this guy is a huge station. his most likely action is CALL.

OP, raise/fold was the right play and sometimes you have to make big folds. this is one of those times.

[/ QUOTE ]

youre not making sense though... if villain is a station, and his most likely play is to CALL a rasie, then why the are we raising in the first place? we only have A-high...

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

also people saying villains reaction to our raise is polarized towards folding/shoving? Where did this come from.

this guy is a huge station. his most likely action is CALL.

OP, raise/fold was the right play and sometimes you have to make big folds. this is one of those times.

[/ QUOTE ]

youre not making sense though... if villain is a station, and his most likely play is to CALL a rasie, then why the are we raising in the first place? we only have A-high...

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a joke?

We would love for him to just call here as we can play our hand from here on out for huge EV with position against a calling station.

soda

Re: 200nl 6max DEEP- Raised flop NutFLushDraw facing 4 bet push!
 

if hes a calliong sation we still have huge implied odds by just calling. most of the value in raising draws is in fold equity, no?
and like has been mentioned several times it really sucks to raise the NFD and then have to fold/not know what to do