FT Hand Sanity Check
 

This is from the FT of a 20/180. I was very aggressive on the bubble and the FT bubble, and villain's been to my left for a while. He c/red my c-bets twice I think, so I'm pretty sure his flop bet is weak.

PokerStars Tournament, Big Blind is t1200 with t75 antes (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t25245)
UTG+1 (t59548)
MP1 (t14482)
MP2 (t14972)
MP3 (t22304)
CO (t28750)
Hero (t35857)
SB (t45537)
BB (t23305)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to t3200</font>, SB calls t2600, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>

Flop: (t8275) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="red">SB bets t3600</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to t9000</font>, SB calls t5400

Turn: (t26275) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: (t26275) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero ????

What do I put him on when he calls the flop bet and then tries to check it down?

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

erm.

i think... nothing that you can successfully bluff that you can't beat?

so i check.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

I would check behind river. I'm not really sure what he has, but he is not folding anything that beats you and i doubt he would call anything that you have beat except maybe something like 55

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

k... this is me being super results oriented cause he had KTs.

I vow to never make a post like this again.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

that's not really being results oriented since he never folds a ten there [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

No reason not to check behind here. He is calling with just about everything that beats you.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

Raise more on flop, push turn. That's a sick line.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

tuba,

i actually think the flop raise is pretty money. it gets the dude to fold air, and since he's never folding a T or a Q or a draw anyway, is cheap for us.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

I would fold to the flop bet. On a QTx board, he has a pair or draw.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

[ QUOTE ]
tuba,

i actually think the flop raise is pretty money. it gets the dude to fold air, and since he's never folding a T or a Q or a draw anyway, is cheap for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy is getting 4:1 to call Noah's raise...[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I typed out some other comments but they ended up being really results oriented, so let's just suffice it to say that I'd put at least 8-9k on top rather than the 5400 Noah did. (if I was even going to bluff in the first place)

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tuba,

i actually think the flop raise is pretty money. it gets the dude to fold air, and since he's never folding a T or a Q or a draw anyway, is cheap for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy is getting 4:1 to call Noah's raise...[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I typed out some other comments but they ended up being really results oriented, so let's just suffice it to say that I'd put at least 8-9k on top rather than the 5400 Noah did. (if I was even going to bluff in the first place)

[/ QUOTE ]

well, exactly. the thing is the odds dont matter because its not like we're trying to protect our hand.

if the guy never folds a ten anyway (and obv never folds a queen), and never folds a draw, whats the point of making a bigger raise?

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold to the flop bet. On a QTx board, he has a pair or draw.

[/ QUOTE ]Plus your raise was tiny.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

[ QUOTE ]

i actually think the flop raise is pretty money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah.. I liked it too. I think I'd make it 9k here regardless of stacks, but with stacks, I think it's pretty necessary because I want to discourage him from pushing back with a draw.

[ QUOTE ]
it gets the dude to fold air, and since he's never folding a T or a Q or a draw anyway, is cheap for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think lots of players, including this one, bet/fold a T here. I don't think this specific guy would've lead a Q, 'cause he knows I'm betting if he checks.

I mean.. I was calling a river bet.

The only reason I considered betting the river was because I think he folds almost 100% of the time, and occasionally he has a T with a flush draw or a flush draw that paired the turn and has me kickered. But, I guess the odds that he played a Q or a set like this are greater than the odds that he has one of those hands.




Edit: This is an FT (I think the first hand, actually)... you can get away with betting a lot less at FTs, especially when you're showing strength against a guy who's showing weakness and stacks are so clearly in play.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

i wish i could get people to fold middle pair after i raise their donk bets [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

unless this guy is a pretty big cs, I raise flop pretty much always, and uh let me check stacks and pot, ya I push turn. I don't think giving up on the turn is good. Once you checked turn, you blew any chance of having a line that makes sense for a hand that beats one he might fold, so check behind.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

How weak were the blinds? I am going to make a post soon about the impact of limping hands like these with stacks like this on the button in MTTs. People raise, raise, raise the button too much and build big pots without monster stacks (you rarely have huge stacks in non rebuy,deepstack events).

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

oh, and I just read some comments about making the flop bet bigger. I don't think that is necessary. I like your raise, but only as long as you push turn. If he reraises the flop bet, you fold, if he folds, great, if he calls, doesn't bother me because he's check/folding the turn unimproved most of the time, so he just made the pot bigger for me to steal. If he check calls my all in on turn, sick call, he deserves a pat on the back.

The larger flop bet wastes more when he moves in, and it's only advantage is that he may fold a few more hands.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

[ QUOTE ]
How weak were the blinds? I am going to make a post soon about the impact of limping hands like these with stacks like this on the button in MTTs. People raise, raise, raise the button too much and build big pots without monster stacks (you rarely have huge stacks in non rebuy,deepstack events).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to read it. I have some immediate thoughts on it, I'll wait for your thread. I can support button limping but don't agree with your post much.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

[ QUOTE ]
unless this guy is a pretty big cs, I raise flop pretty much always, and uh let me check stacks and pot, ya I push turn. I don't think giving up on the turn is good. Once you checked turn, you blew any chance of having a line that makes sense for a hand that beats one he might fold, so check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think this is too aggro. You raise with 76o to steal the blinds. You get called. The flop comes two broadway cards and a 2-flush. You get bet into. What is wrong with folding? I think it is a mistake to try to win the hand every time you try to steal, get called, and miss the flop. I like to play aggro on the bubble too, but there are better ways to do it.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
unless this guy is a pretty big cs, I raise flop pretty much always, and uh let me check stacks and pot, ya I push turn. I don't think giving up on the turn is good. Once you checked turn, you blew any chance of having a line that makes sense for a hand that beats one he might fold, so check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think this is too aggro. You raise with 76o to steal the blinds. You get called. The flop comes two broadway cards and a 2-flush. You get bet into. What is wrong with folding? I think it is a mistake to try to win the hand every time you try to steal, get called, and miss the flop. I like to play aggro on the bubble too, but there are better ways to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]


Noah mentioned to me in passing on AIM that since the final 2 tables, everyone was being an ultra-nit...this is a read/player dependant move that would have quite likely worked if he followed up on the turn. If this seems results oriented, remember that Noah raised the flop after sensing weakness, and at showdown it appears he was right.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

[ QUOTE ]

I really think this is too aggro. You raise with 76o to steal the blinds. You get called. The flop comes two broadway cards and a 2-flush. You get bet into. What is wrong with folding? I think it is a mistake to try to win the hand every time you try to steal, get called, and miss the flop. I like to play aggro on the bubble too, but there are better ways to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm always suspicious when I raise preflop and someone bets into me. Here, the guy knew I was betting 100% of the time, so it's silly for him to lead a strong hand. I think a good time to be aggressive late in an MTT is when your opponent doesn't have a strong hand.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

the purpose of his bet is probably to see where he is at. He knows you're betting if he checks, and check calling puts him in a tough spot. A c/r would have been awesome by him, but most people don't have the balls to do it and instead donk-bet a regular c-better instead to try to slow them down. Sometimes, tricky people do it to an aggro player to induce the reraise, so that they can call, check the turn, and hopefully get a large turn bet too. But I think the board makes it unlikely that villain does this with all the draws possible. I don't think this is too aggro at all and is actually fairly standard for me.

But Noah, did you just puss out on the turn or did you have a reason? Did you have a plan for action once you were called?

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

Yeah.. I thought his bet was to see where he was at as well. So, I explained to him that he was losing.

I checked the turn because I had showdown value. I think his range after calling the flop bet is really really heavily weighted towards draws. I'm confident enough in this to call a river bet on a blank. I need all of those things to be true to check the turn.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

I really hate checking the turn. this maybe has some showdown value on a blank (which is not that many cards), and it has a lot of win a big pot right now value. no use in keeping the pot small now, it's already pretty big. folding pre is ok, but once you choose to raise, the only good line i see here is raise his flop bet around the size that you did, and push blank turn when he checks. I honestly don't think I like anything else. if turn is not a blank, maybe check. The only other situation If you're folding the flop, fold preflop. Don't even try stealing if you're gonna play like such a girl. I'm not even being stupid here, honestly.

I think a more interesting situation would have occurred if the stacks were such that your flop raise would have to be all in.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

wait, did he have KTss or just KT?
because if he has KTss and he doesn't check-push, he's horrible.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

[ QUOTE ]
wait, did he have KTss or just KT?
because if he has KTss and he doesn't check-push, he's horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Of course he's horrible.

Re: FT Hand Sanity Check
 

if he has KsTs, he calls my turn push and crushes me, and I look retarded. I still love my self and my line though.