Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...nn-Dealers.php
[ QUOTE ]
The dealers voted 444-149 in favor of being represented by the Transportation Workers Union of America in an election this weekend...
"I did not realize the extent of the mistake I had made until yesterday," Wynn said, explaining his talk with a longtime employee who felt betrayed. "I was more focused on the right thing I did for the bosses, than the wrong thing I did to the dealers."

[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty amazing. Wynn screws the dealers, runs over 'em roughshod, when a couple of them try to form a class action lawsuit against him and the case is tossed, he sues 'em for his legal costs... and now that the dealers have had enough and are ready to unionize he decides at the last minute to make nice? Very, very classy, Steve. Bravo.

No idea if poker dealers will be included in the union. I presume they won't be excluded. But they were not included in the forced toke sharing that sparked this.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

Poker Dealers are not included.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wynn screws the dealers

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is at least debatable.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wynn screws the dealers

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is at least debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even Steve is admitting now he screwed the dealers. Shouldn't that kinda end any debate?

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

aren't they the highest paid/toked dealers in las vegas?

non poker dealers that is

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
aren't they the highest paid/toked dealers in las vegas?

non poker dealers that is

[/ QUOTE ]

Not after they started taking their tips for management.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
One of the first negotiating points was to revisit the tip agreement. "That tip sharing, we definitely want that back in our pockets," Laux said.

[/ QUOTE ]

its plausible that with the union the dealers could actually earn less at first due to a failure to renegotiate the tip share, walkouts, work stoppages, and other tools the union will use to help the dealers in the long run, but hurt them greatly in the short run. It seems as if the dealers joined the union with a false sense of financial security. Sure the union will help them all keep their job security, but their dues might be as great as any "raise" they would have gotten by not joining the union. Wynn could still hold his ground at the risk of a strike, there are plenty of dealers in LV would would die to work there as a scab just to get the opportunity to make as much as the Wynn dealers did even with the tip sharing structure.

In short - the war between the dealers and Steve Wynn isn't over, this was just the first major battle (which Steven obviously lost) - there will be more battles to come, and some of them might be bloody with families losing their source of income during a walkout. Not pretty.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wynn screws the dealers

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is at least debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even Steve is admitting now he screwed the dealers. Shouldn't that kinda end any debate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. He's just posturing now.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wynn screws the dealers

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is at least debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even Steve is admitting now he screwed the dealers. Shouldn't that kinda end any debate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. He's just posturing now.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. Steve probably has big plans, and the dealers wont like it.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

The difference is that before whenever Steve had Big Plans he got to impose them unilaterally.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wynn screws the dealers

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is at least debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even Steve is admitting now he screwed the dealers. Shouldn't that kinda end any debate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. He's just posturing now.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. Steve probably has big plans, and the dealers wont like it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't get this. The article states there are 633 full time dealers. Taking $10,000. from each would be $6,330,000.

I don't know anything about running a big Las Vegas casino, but it seems only negative fallout can come from the casino trying to claim this money. Unless they're now going to try to replace a large portion of dealers with machines, then taking ~$6.5 million a year from the dealers and handing the majority of that to the supervisors vs. having to deal with another union makes just ponying up more money for the surpervisors a better deal for the casino.

If Wynn had just paid the supervisors more, or had many more dual rate dealers/floor personnel then it seems to this outsider that he would have been much better off than he is going to be now.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

Aren't there throngs of would-be dealers just waiting to be hired if the Wynn dealers strike?

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the first negotiating points was to revisit the tip agreement. "That tip sharing, we definitely want that back in our pockets," Laux said.

[/ QUOTE ]

its plausible that with the union the dealers could actually earn less at first due to a failure to renegotiate the tip share, walkouts, work stoppages, and other tools the union will use to help the dealers in the long run, but hurt them greatly in the short run. It seems as if the dealers joined the union with a false sense of financial security. Sure the union will help them all keep their job security, but their dues might be as great as any "raise" they would have gotten by not joining the union. Wynn could still hold his ground at the risk of a strike, there are plenty of dealers in LV would would die to work there as a scab just to get the opportunity to make as much as the Wynn dealers did even with the tip sharing structure.

In short - the war between the dealers and Steve Wynn isn't over, this was just the first major battle (which Steven obviously lost) - there will be more battles to come, and some of them might be bloody with families losing their source of income during a walkout. Not pretty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't be so quick to discount job security as an important union benefit. And I wouldn't assume that joining a union automatically means job actions, walkouts or strikes. In fact, if you look at the history of organized labor you will find that only a very small percentage of strikes have occurred as a ratio of the total number of contract negotiations. What typically happens is that both sides negotiate and come to an agreement where each side gives up something(s) in exchange for other thing(s). The employees benefit because they can negotiate as a group and extract better terms and employers benefit by having a happy, satisfied workforce with known costs that they can factor into future planning.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the first negotiating points was to revisit the tip agreement. "That tip sharing, we definitely want that back in our pockets," Laux said.

[/ QUOTE ]

its plausible that with the union the dealers could actually earn less at first due to a failure to renegotiate the tip share, walkouts, work stoppages, and other tools the union will use to help the dealers in the long run, but hurt them greatly in the short run. It seems as if the dealers joined the union with a false sense of financial security. Sure the union will help them all keep their job security, but their dues might be as great as any "raise" they would have gotten by not joining the union. Wynn could still hold his ground at the risk of a strike, there are plenty of dealers in LV would would die to work there as a scab just to get the opportunity to make as much as the Wynn dealers did even with the tip sharing structure.

In short - the war between the dealers and Steve Wynn isn't over, this was just the first major battle (which Steven obviously lost) - there will be more battles to come, and some of them might be bloody with families losing their source of income during a walkout. Not pretty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't be so quick to discount job security as an important union benefit. And I wouldn't assume that joining a union automatically means job actions, walkouts or strikes. In fact, if you look at the history of organized labor you will find that only a very small percentage of strikes have occurred as a ratio of the total number of contract negotiations. What typically happens is that both sides negotiate and come to an agreement where each side gives up something(s) in exchange for other thing(s). The employees benefit because they can negotiate as a group and extract better terms and employers benefit by having a happy, satisfied workforce with known costs that they can factor into future planning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except in a right-to-work state like Nevada, striking is the only hammer the unions have. When everyone knows there are plenty of replacements waiting in the wings, strike is not much of a threat. The unions won't have much negotiating power.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wynn screws the dealers

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is at least debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even Steve is admitting now he screwed the dealers. Shouldn't that kinda end any debate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. He's just posturing now.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. Steve probably has big plans, and the dealers wont like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree TT Wynn is just the type to say .... "ok I don't need you people anymore and introduce the biggest electronic tabled poker room ANYWHERE"

With Electronic Tables looming in the future dealers might want to rethink how aggressivly they want to pursue higher wages.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wynn screws the dealers

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is at least debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even Steve is admitting now he screwed the dealers. Shouldn't that kinda end any debate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. He's just posturing now.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. Steve probably has big plans, and the dealers wont like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree TT Wynn is just the type to say .... "ok I don't need you people anymore and introduce the biggest electronic tabled poker room ANYWHERE"

With Electronic Tables looming in the future dealers might want to rethink how aggressivly they want to pursue higher wages.

[/ QUOTE ]

earth to govman6767, come n govman6767.

- the poker dealers are not in the union. This was discussed earlier in the thread, and I don't think Wynn is that type of guy at all to dump human beings for electronic tables.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

Nevada is the most union-dense state in America despite being a "right to work" state. And even with "right to work" laws, the strip casinos have 90%+ membership rates, even at MGM where the casino is extremely anti-union.

Steve Wynn has always been one of the most union friendly operators in Vegas. There has never been a strike at any of his properties by any of the unions.

In fact, there have been very few strikes in Vegas at all, especially on the strip. The strikes that have happened have usually happened at casinos owned by families like the Alardi's who are insane and evil to their employees.

Unions are a major part of life in Las Vegas in the gaming industry. They are the major reason why cocktail waitresses have pensions and fully paid health insurance and are able to buy their own homes and put kids through college.

The dealers at the Wynn unionizing won't be bad in the least. In fact it can only improve their situation vis a vis management. Clearly they understand that and that is reflected in the vote.

When are people going to learn that unions aren't a boogie man that steals your money and drags you kicking and screaming out on strike? That's the crap the bosses have told workers for decades.

If it was true that unions could end up negotiating less and end up with a cheaper deal for management, then management would never fight the union.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

just friggin peachy ---
I know the poker dealers are not part of this but still---
One voice for a hundred.
If (it will happen) they ever go on strike, lets see how happy those dealers are when they start getting notices of default.

OK no more rant ------

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

Pulled tips + unionized dealers = BAD customer service.

I know some old time gamblers that SWEAR the service in Vegas went to hell when the tips started to get pulled. These same guys would also joke about the nightmare of bringing union representations to cash-income environment.

I'll still be going to the Wynn for Poker, but nothing else.

If the dealers want to make more money, then they can work towards getting promoted to a floor person / shift supervisor / pit boss. -OR-... two words for them... NIGHT - SCHOOL.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

PS... if the figures in the article are true... where the hell else in America can an uneducated individual work 40 hours a week in a georgous air conditioned environment and make $90K a year + full benefits + potential OT.

Seems to me like they don't have much to bitch about.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unions are a major part of life in Las Vegas in the gaming industry. They are the major reason why cocktail waitresses have pensions and fully paid health insurance and are able to buy their own homes and put kids through college.



[/ QUOTE ]

GMAB that unions have anything to do with the fact that full time cocktail jobs on the strip pay well and have benefits.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

lol please tell me another city in america where cocktail waitresses have fully paid health care and pensions.

i know one: atlantic city, nj, another unionized gaming city

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't there throngs of would-be dealers just waiting to be hired if the Wynn dealers strike?

[/ QUOTE ]

A line from the Stratosphere to Mandalay Bay. There's a ton of dealers who would kill to make what the Wynn dealers are making now, post-tip reduction.

Bicycles pretty much expressed my feelings. The only reason Uncle Steve took a piece of the tips for the bosses was to entice dealers to move up the ranks because no dealers whatsoever wanted to give up the gravy train and living high on the schnied.

Maybe he went about it the wrong way, but I don't know if increasing the bosses' salaries by $10-$15k without touching the tips would've helped entice dealers to move up in job status and responsibility or not, and that's a big question, I feel, in wondering why what's happened, happened.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol please tell me another city in america where cocktail waitresses have fully paid health care and pensions.

i know one: atlantic city, nj, another unionized gaming city

[/ QUOTE ]

Vegas cocktail waitresses would have these benefits regardless because its needed to attract the labor force. Vegas is much bigger than AC.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Aren't there throngs of would-be dealers just waiting to be hired if the Wynn dealers strike?

[/ QUOTE ]

A line from the Stratosphere to Mandalay Bay. There's a ton of dealers who would kill to make what the Wynn dealers are making now, post-tip reduction.

Bicycles pretty much expressed my feelings. The only reason Uncle Steve took a piece of the tips for the bosses was to entice dealers to move up the ranks because no dealers whatsoever wanted to give up the gravy train and living high on the schnied.

Maybe he went about it the wrong way, but I don't know if increasing the bosses' salaries by $10-$15k without touching the tips would've helped entice dealers to move up in job status and responsibility or not, and that's a big question, I feel, in wondering why what's happened, happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only are the Wynn dealers the highest paid after the tip sharing scheme, the bosses were some of the best compensated in Vegas as well. Only problem is they cant make nearly as much as they can being a dealer. I actually think Wynn's idea was based on a solid concept, but the road to implementation was bound to be rocky.

If I were Steve I'd tell the union to shove it when they ask for the tip-sharing policy to be withdrawn, he can give concessions in other areas but this is establishing a good precedent for the future - dealers need an upwardly mobile path to success, and right now there is none.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

If only Wynn had the foresight to implement this tip sharing scheem before the doors opened, there would have been no uproar.

Demand for dealing postions would not have been affected either.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
If only Wynn had the foresight to implement this tip sharing scheem before the doors opened, there would have been no uproar.

Demand for dealing postions would not have been affected either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think everyone agrees with that, however who would have guessed the tips would be so huge that it created a lopsided economy?

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

So if you had such a job, and then your boss came in one day without warning or discussion and announced unilaterilly that he was taking 10-20% of your pay andusing it to pay othetr employees (who would not be alleviating your workload) you would be happy about that say well at least I still make a lot of money for an uneducated peron who works in a gorgeous air conditioned environment + full benefits?

How many times would be able to accept your boss unilaterally reducing your compensation before you felt you had something to bitch about?

On top of that remember that the money they are making isn't even money paid by WYNN -- its not like a scenario were a business comes along and says we need to reduce wages or the business won't survive so making less is better than making nothing.

Many of these dealers are what you would "call" educated. All of them though are educated. You see WYNN is not a breakin house (though I know a poker dealer at WYNN who broke in there) These Pit dealers all are experienced Pit dealers. These are people who who have been doing these jobs long enough to become "educated" in doing them.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

So supervisors get a $36K increase and Wynn doesn't have to pay a thing.
Would have cost him $1.6M a quarter.

Net casino revenues in the first quarter of 2007 were $173.1 million.
Table games win per unit per day was $12,794
... Source

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
On top of that remember that the money they are making isn't even money paid by WYNN -- its not like a scenario were a business comes along and says we need to reduce wages or the business won't survive so making less is better than making nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

My company owns a bar in NYC, for years the bartenders would tip out the barbacks and porters whatever they felt was "right". This policy was set up under the old management, when the new manager came along he couldn't figure out why he can't keep support staff for more than a few months. he implemented a new mandetory percentage of tip share policy which solved the problem - sort of. Now there were a bunch of unhappy bartenders, who were abusive to the support staff and complained all the time - the worst of them were fired, and the remaining complainers suddenly got quiet. One of them pointed out a few weeks later that he never thought the old policy was fair, but suddenly he is taking home more money because the busboys and barbacks are moving faster - which means greater sales and higher tip pools. The net result was support staff is happy, they make more now and aren't being abused, and the bartenders are making nearly the same amount as before on most nights, and occasionally they are making more because of the increased performance.

Of course this little story cant be applied in its pure form to the situation at the Wynn, but it does help to show that this is a very common thing for management to do - often without negative ramifications like we are seeing at Wynn.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

TT,

Even outside its pure form, that analogy seems wrong.

After all it is accepted practice that waitresses and bartenders tip out for busboys and barbacks. Wynn was the first to try making that stream flow uphill.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If only Wynn had the foresight to implement this tip sharing scheem before the doors opened, there would have been no uproar.

Demand for dealing postions would not have been affected either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think everyone agrees with that, however who would have guessed the tips would be so huge that it created a lopsided economy?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the realy problem. Wynn went out of his way to make sure the environment, the beauty of the CW's, and the staff were TOP notch.

this has lead to tipping phenom that no one else can duplicate.

No one could have predicted this upside-down system where the bosses were making 20% less than dealers.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
TT,

Even outside its pure form, that analogy seems wrong.

After all it is accepted practice that waitresses and bartenders tip out for busboys and barbacks. Wynn was the first to try making that stream flow uphill.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know its wrong but it does help to show Wynn's thought process. It's not like he is operating in a vacuum, there are prior examples of management policies in service industries.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
So if you had such a job, and then your boss came in one day without warning or discussion and announced unilaterilly that he was taking 10-20% of your pay andusing it to pay othetr employees (who would not be alleviating your workload) you would be happy about that say well at least I still make a lot of money for an uneducated peron who works in a gorgeous air conditioned environment + full benefits?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not. But I also wouldn't be stupid enough to believe a union could do anything about it. I'd have to accept the reality that I'm being paid at the top of the totem pole for what I do, and I don't have an option of going somewhere else, or extorting my employer.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

So the guy who took the most risk, along with the stock holders do not have the right to make as much as possible.
Even if Wynn was making 3 times this amount per 1/4, I say WOO HOOO for him.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

Of course there is also a difference support staff (who are traditionally tipped out) and supervisors.

BTW -- i don't object to tipping out my supervisor -- I do so everyday (voluntarily). The point is that it is commonplace in poker. It is not industry standard in table games. If Wynn had done it from the start and told the dealers up front what was going on, it would be an entirely different thing. But to walk in one day and unilaterally impose it is a significant problem for the dealers. If they accept that then where does it end? Next week he comes in and change sthe percentage, gives himslef a share, adds the security guards to the list of people getting a share.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
So the guy who took the most risk, along with the stock holders do not have the right to make as much as possible.
Even if Wynn was making 3 times this amount per 1/4, I say WOO HOOO for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

The figures were to show that he could "afford" to pay the supervisors himself. Not like the casino was barely making money.

The point is that the dealers were hired under one set of conditions and Wynn unilaterally changed them. If he wants better supervisors, pay them himself, do not rob the dealers. Guess you wouldn't mind taking a $10K pay cut so someone else can make $30K more.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

I find it interesting that the TWU, as smaller union that doesn't have that much of a presence in Vegas, is organizing the deales, not HERE (Culinary) or the Teamsters. Both of those unions have a huge presence in the Casinos. One has to wonder why they didn't pick up the dealers.

One also has to ask if Culinary and the Teamsters will support the TWU effort. If push comes to shove, and the dealers walk, as mentioned above, Wynn could replace them in milliseconds. That is, unless the other two unions honor the picket lines, and shut down the whole operation.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find it interesting that the TWU, as smaller union that doesn't have that much of a presence in Vegas, is organizing the deales, not HERE (Culinary) or the Teamsters. Both of those unions have a huge presence in the Casinos. One has to wonder why they didn't pick up the dealers.

One also has to ask if Culinary and the Teamsters will support the TWU effort. If push comes to shove, and the dealers walk, as mentioned above, Wynn could replace them in milliseconds. That is, unless the other two unions honor the picket lines, and shut down the whole operation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The longstanding story about culinary is that the union had agreed to not touch the dealers.

In AC the the dealers who have recently unionized joined the UAW. its interesting the way some unions have grown to the point where there names are really just historical references.

Re: Wynn Dealers Unionizing
 

[ QUOTE ]
If push comes to shove, and the dealers walk, as mentioned above, Wynn could replace them in milliseconds. That is, unless the other two unions honor the picket lines, and shut down the whole operation.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean like they shut down the Frontier?