Limping UTG!!!
 

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $7.95
BB: $10.05
Hero (UTG): $10.15
MP: $9.90
CO: $10.20
BTN: $1.55

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players)
Hero calls $0.10, 4 folds, BB checks

Well, I have heard that limping UTG is a horrible move... But what do I do with hands like this? Just fold? I can't raise it OOP. What about Axs? Mid and Low SC???

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

I would fold fold all of those hands utg. Its likley you'll have to play the hand oop and there are still 5 players left to act, any of whom could raise. None of those hands are really the type of hand you want to call a raise with.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

6 handed=RAISE it up or if you decide to limp like this hand play agro after flop or be prepared to fold it and move on.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

Openlimping in 6Max is in generally not that good, because other than in full ring games it might just create a pot of 2.5 to 3.5 BB, which makes it hard to extract a good portion of value, while an Openlimp on a Full Ring Table can easily create a pot of 4 up to 5.5 or even more BB. Way better to get paid off if you hit.
Also raising gives you a chance to win the Blinds right away. You can't accomplish this by raising.

First In in 6Max Games you basically have to decide if your hand is worth playing for a raise or not. If it's not, dump it. If it is: Raise it up.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

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I would fold fold all of those hands utg. Its likley you'll have to play the hand oop and there are still 5 players left to act, any of whom could raise. None of those hands are really the type of hand you want to call a raise with.

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And you will go broke playing NLHE...you have to play some hands like this to win.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

I have conflicting answers here.... I like the one that says raise it or fold it... Can I get more opinion from soemoen who can give ma straight answer???

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

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I have conflicting answers here.... I like the one that says raise it or fold it... Can I get more opinion from soemoen who can give ma straight answer???

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I gave you a good opinion...play agro post flop even 3-4 bet a pot.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

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I have conflicting answers here.... I like the one that says raise it or fold it... Can I get more opinion from soemoen who can give ma straight answer???

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Straight answer is that you can raise hands like the ones you mention UTG in a 6max game ... some do it all the time and some prefer not to

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

thanks.. im gonna mix up my play here by going half half then.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

Q 10 suited 6 handed falls into my UTG raise portfolio...standard 3X just like AA or AK or 99

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

fold that all day utg.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

on a table with passive players (regarding PFR%) I am raising this to 3.5bb UTG about 80% of the time and folding 20%. on a table with aggressive players (regarding PFR%) I'm flipping those percentages around. and reply to the e-mail I sent you OP

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

exactly.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

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thanks.. im gonna mix up my play here by going half half then.

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Good idea ... limping is possible, but playing without initiative oop does not have many fans (and is better saved for hyper aggro games that does NOT exist at small stakes )

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

oh my.. just fold. it's NL10 and no need to get fancy..

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

pretty easy fold as standard. If table is weak then it's a safe raise but i'd be folding there upwards of 90% of the time.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

Think about how you will make money AFTER the flop.
You are out of position so when you hit a flush or straightdraw on the flop you could semibluff. But what if you get called till the river and don't hit? You'll often find yourself in spew spots.
Also, you give the BB a chance to see the flop for free even though you might have the best hand. Whats the point in that?

Open limping in 6max is just bad (ok some like to limp with 22 and stuff like that utg, but imho thats still bad cause it's pretty obvious that you're holding a small pocket pair)

Raise, be the agressor, pick up the blinds every now and then aswell, let them fear you!

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

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[ QUOTE ]
thanks.. im gonna mix up my play here by going half half then.

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Good idea ... limping is possible, but playing without initiative oop does not have many fans (and is better saved for hyper aggro games that does NOT exist at small stakes )

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[x] Friday evening
[x] Drunk people
[x] NL10 at Stars

Qualify

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

Don't be "that" fish.

Raise if you are feeling frisky.

Fold if you know what's good for you.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

if you're going to limp with that, then you have to realize you'll limp with AA there sometimes, AK, 88, 44, 78c, etc. if you're going to play that Q10h though, raise and expect to hit a flop you may not like. i'd just fold, as you can get yourself in trouble with hands like that, ie. you'll likely be OOP, your top pair is likely outkicked, etc.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

No reason to play this hand. Just fold it. Everyone at NL10 is a station anyway.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

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I have conflicting answers here.... I like the one that says raise it or fold it... Can I get more opinion from soemoen who can give ma straight answer???

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Raise or fold. If you think you can make money at this table with this hand, raise it up. Default play for a learning player would be to fold in EP. I don't think either play makes too much difference in a vacuum.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

the straight answer for 10nl is that you should limp this hand sometimes and fold it the rest of the time.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

There is only one correct answer to this question:
It depends.

Most of the advice in this thread so far seem to be based on pretty simple rule-of-thumb thinking, ie 'I has hand x in position y so I must always do z'. The truth is that all options are open to you - fold, raise, limp. It depends. To the people that say always raise/fold, try thinking of a situation where limping in utg actually might be a good option.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

I'm having a difficult time thinking of a situation where limping Q10s UTG is a good option six-handed.

To the OP, I recommend considering a raise with this hand when first to act only if a few conditions are met.

1) The table climate is favorable. This can mean several things: tight-passive players who will give you their blinds easily, one or two loose-weak players who call you but fold a lot of flops to your c-bets, super-stations who call with any two cards and pay you off with any piece / draw when you flop TP or better (without semi-bluffing you or pressuring you), players whom you have good reads on and can manipulate well when good spots arise, etc.

2) You have a decent idea how to play out of position with marginal holdings versus one or two weak-to-decent opponents. This usually involves a lot of cautious play, a wider than usual check-calling range, the occasional bit of check-raising against certain types of villains, sporadic block-betting on the turn to set the price going to the river versus passive pay-off wizards, and other lines you'll learn with experience.

Being out of position is always going to be a tricky aspect of NLHE, and your short-handed UTG range (once you move past bare beginner status) should be dynamic and adaptive.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is only one correct answer to this question:
It depends.

Most of the advice in this thread so far seem to be based on pretty simple rule-of-thumb thinking, ie 'I has hand x in position y so I must always do z'. The truth is that all options are open to you - fold, raise, limp. It depends. To the people that say always raise/fold, try thinking of a situation where limping in utg actually might be a good option.

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After my first 100K hands, I looked through my pokertraker stats pretty hard, and found that I was bleeding money in hands where I limped or called raises. I think open-limping is pretty spewy unless you incorporate it into your game, which I think isn't really necessary at 6max. In FR, I think it may be a bigger part of an ABC strategy. About the only hands I could ever see open-limping with would be smaller pairs with the occasional big hand thrown in.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

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fold that all day utg.

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qft
You usually want to be extremly tight UTG and UTG+1 (raising 15% or less)
CO and BTN raise this all day

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

I even think KQ/KJ/A9s arent worth much alot of the time to raise UTG.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

Has this forum already forgotten the brilliant post "Dear uNL, you're not good enough"???

There are no conditions in uNL that would justify playing QTs UTG. At a table of 3/3 nits so you can steal the blinds? Maybe.

Fold it, fold it, fold it. Every time!!! *You do not need to mix up your game at NL10* You're opponents aren't paying attention anyway. What you need to do is learn the fundamentals, position being a most important concept.

If you play QTs UTG and raise it up, one of two things will likely happen:

1) You will flop a pair, and if you meet resistance from villain you are going to be out-kicked unless villain is stupid. But even stupid people make hands from time to time.

2) you will flop a pair and combo draw, which you won't know how to play because you will be OOP. And playing draws OOP is difficult.



I respect the fact that poker is a situationally dependent game, and perhaps QTs can be played profitably UTG at NL10. But developing bad habits is no good. And if you are trying to develop an ABC TAG game, which most people that post in uNL are trying to do, fold it.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

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I'm having a difficult time thinking of a situation where limping Q10s UTG is a good option six-handed.

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When the other people at your table

1) are major calling stations pre-flop and rarely ever raise

and

2) call down deveral substantial bets with hands like middle pair/top pair.

In that situation a pre-flop raise would not enable you to take down pots with cbets while you will get paid off even if you don't start building the pot pre-flop.

Situations like that can come around sporadically on loose/passive tables and if you identify them as such a limp would be the right play. (You are playing for 2pair or better then.)

I don't think you will often find tables that stay in this dynamic over several orbits although I have seen it happen.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

Quite the controrary Trigs [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The only reason to consider limping UTG is for implementing limp reraise strategy on very aggro tables. If everyone is just a calling station, no way I think I am good enough to outplay 3-4 other people postflop in an unraised pot with this hand from this position. The times your gonna be dominated / playing RIO - just terrible [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I may limp it in LP for the reasons your decribed though if I think that my raise is not going to cut the field to HU. But then I am more likely to raise more preflop than to overlimp.

And yes, I almost always fold this UTG. The only case i may raise it is when there is a huge, I mean huuuuuuge, fish sitting in the blinds and the players behind me are somewhat tight.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

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If everyone is just a calling station, no way I think I am good enough to outplay 3-4 other people postflop in an unraised pot with this hand from this position.

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You don't need to outplay people who stack off with middle pair in unraised pots. You flop 2pair or better often enough for the 1bb investment to be worth it.

!!This is for the special case situation I described above. I fold this all the time at normal tables!!

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

Ye but then you end up playing it for face value pretty often. And two pairs never freaking hold in limped pots. And the Q high flush is never good. Soo much trouble [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is only one correct answer to this question:
It depends.

Most of the advice in this thread so far seem to be based on pretty simple rule-of-thumb thinking, ie 'I has hand x in position y so I must always do z'. The truth is that all options are open to you - fold, raise, limp. It depends. To the people that say always raise/fold, try thinking of a situation where limping in utg actually might be a good option.

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Just want to note that I virtually never play this hand utg 6-handed, and if I did I would usually raise. However, I do believe situations occasionally pop up where it might be a good idea to limp. Say a table full of loose passive callstations, both pre and post, with deepish stacks, a limp might be good to see if you can flop a strong hand. With a table like that you shouldnt have much trouble building a pot postflop when you hit big - even if it starts out small.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

I'd limp with it UTG if the other players all had low PF raise numbers, and tended to min-raise when they did raise. A call despite being OOP would make sense then, unless they were all short-stacked.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

I was tempted to make a flippant response to this thread, but there are some interesting and deep poker questions that revolve around this issue. Ultimately, I think:

1. The people who say "raise or fold" are close.
2. The people who say "just fold it" are closer.
3. The people who say "it depends" have got it.

Our hand is weak and our position is awful. As poker players, we should realize that position is king in no-limit, and that without it we're going to have a very hard time making money. Sure, every once in awhile we'll flop KJx or J9x and have a nicely disguised straight draw, but even there we're only going to complete our draw occasionally, and the payoff won't be particularly great if we're in a limped pot. We'll have a hard time bluffing at a pot OOP, we'll have a hard time extracting value on a Q-high or T-high board, and we won't be able to bet hard without at LEAST two pair. Much is lined up against this hand, and my default play is definitely going to be to fold this from EP.

This is the kind of hand where I need a pretty good reason NOT to fold. Examples might be:

1. The people on my left are overly tight and the people in the blinds are overly loose. If I've made extremely good table selection, this isn't an unlikely scenario. As such, a raise could easily buy me the button and give me a good shot at a nice win, either with a successful continuation bet or with a sneaky TPNK-type hand. Here, raising would be the most +EV move in my arsenal.

2. My table image is overly tight -- I've folded every hand for the past few orbits, and I think my folding equity is exquisitely high. Here, I could (VERY OCCASIONALLY) make a "blind steal" from UTG, knowing that I'll have a good chance at picking up the blinds. Even better, there's a chance that I get into a fight and show down a winner with my QTs(!), "proving" to the table that I'm a maniac and getting me tons of action when I actually have a hand worth raising preflop. This is a pure image play that you can make with ATC, but only when conditions are perfect, and even then it needs to be done extremely sparingly.

As to smooth-calling, there are a few reasons for that one, too:


1. The table doesn't fold or raise. I'll get a multi-way pot for 1 BB, and if I hit well I'll extract a fortune from one or more imbeciles. Here, limping is the right play.

2. There are some TPPs sitting on my left who get married to hands postflop entirely too easily. They don't often play a hand, but once they do they just can't find a fold. For these folks, the trick is to entice them into ponying up that first BB to get the game started; after that, they become donators just like the more traditional calling stations. Also, since they are passive preflop you don't have to worry abou them dropping a raise on you and forcing you off your cruddy hand. Don't think these guys don't exist -- those 9/1 rocks get BORED playing their set-mining game, and when they actually see a flop, they don't want the fun and excitement to end -- they'll call down with their 99, knowing that T7432 couldn't possibly have hit an UTG's calling range....

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In general, fold this. If you want to get cutesy with limping, do it by completing the SB more often: it's much cheaper and there are far fewer opportunities for someone to raise behind you. All the reasons to complete from UTG are MUCH stronger when you're in the SB.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

Pokey, My and many others default is to raise it pf, I need a reason to fold it.

One such reason could be:

I am playing 10NL and I do not have much in terms of postflop skill and people tend to be calling stations, so I prefer to just be a mindless nit and just build my roll the easy way untill I hit levels, where I might get forced to open my game in order to survive. (Which is perfectly valid imo)

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

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Pokey, My and many others default is to raise it pf, I need a reason to fold it.


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I've been called a nit before, and I never shy away from the title. I'm comfortable with it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

One such reason could be:

I am playing 10NL and I do not have much in terms of postflop skill and people tend to be calling stations, so I prefer to just be a mindless nit and just build my roll the easy way untill I hit levels, where I might get forced to open my game in order to survive. (Which is perfectly valid imo)


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First off, that's an incredibly good reason to fold at uNL.

Secondly, that reason doesn't stop applying at higher stakes tables. "Opening up your game" is important, but if you look at the really good players they open up their game IN LATE POSITION. Playing very loose from the button is doable for a good hand reader and under the right table conditions. Playing very loose from UTG is probably spewing even for a really good hand reader, and it's DEFINITELY spewing for me. If the 10NL tables are sooooo much worse than the 100NL tables, then it might be possible that playing QTs from UTG is +EV, but I would find that surprising.

All told, I agree that "as you move up" you should be planning to "open up your game." However, I'd much rather open up by raising/playing 10% more hands from the button than 10% (or even 5%) more hands from UTG. Remember: money on the poker table flows clockwise, and if the people in the hand are sitting at your left they're more likely to get your money than the other way around, barring a VERY severe skill differential.

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

nm ...

Re: Limping UTG!!!
 

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3. The people who say "it depends" have got it.

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I win the prize!
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]