a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

Live 10/20 game that I did not witness; I am not the hero in this hand, a friend of mine sent it to me via email. Because we are friends its better if I let you guys have a crack at commenting on the hero's play. I don't want to get involved. Hero is assumed to be a good TAG, and a regular 2+2'er who visits the strategy forums. If the people who were involved in this hand read it, please don't comment until the thread is finished.

4-5 limpers, Hero has AcQc in the SB and raises, everyone comes along.

Flop is Q53, two hearts. Hero bets, Rich raises, Bus calls two cold (he is a smart enough player, hero assumes he has hearts), a fold, and mega-donkey calls on the button. Hero decides to call and check-raise a safe turn. He thinks Rich will bet, and if not Mega-Donkey will bet every time, allowing him to check-raise the field.

He feels that if he three-bets the flop, then he's not getting raised if he sees a safe turn which lowers his expected value. He feels the only question is whether or not Rich will raise a turn donk. If so, he thinks he should have bet the turn.

(interesting side note, Bus commented in the email that was sent between us that if Bret was going 3-bet the flop then he would have likely capped. Feel free to comment on this as well).

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

Not 3-betting this flop is a significant error in this multiway pot in my opinion. Get it in while you're getting the best of it--lots of turn cards kill your action.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

i likely would put in a 3rd bet on the flop, but I think calling and betting any non- [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn is likely OK too. i think hero's equity will change dramatically on the turn card, so i don't think we are gving too much up by just calling the flop and donking the turn (although like i said i'd 3bet the flop in most cases). calling the flop and checking the turn is a disaster IMHO.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

You have to 3-bet that flop.

I'm not sure how Rich plays, but I think he has 55, 33 or a flush draw, KQ or QJ. Statisticly, he has a flush draw or worse top pair here most of the time and you need to charge the maximum, especially since the donky button will call along on the flop and may fold out on the turn.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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He feels that if he three-bets the flop, then he's not getting raised if he sees a safe turn which lowers his expected value.

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His thoughts actually were that he can't protect his hand so he feels like making people put in two big bets on the turn.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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calling the flop and checking the turn is a disaster IMHO.

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No, calling and seeing the flop check through is a disaster.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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calling the flop and checking the turn is a disaster IMHO.

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No, calling and seeing the flop check through is a disaster.

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??? I think you mean turn right?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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Statisticly, he has a flush draw or worse top pair here most of the time and you need to charge the maximum, especially since the donky button will call along on the flop and may fold out on the turn.


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2 people cold-called a raise on this flop. They're not folding the turn. The first cold caller is good. The second is not, but she's seeing the river. Three-betting the flop and getting one bet in from each of them on the turn will get me 1.5 bb's from each. Check-raising will net me two. On the off chance that everyone checks the turn to the button and someone folds to my c/r there, then, so be it, I only have one pair.

Thing is, if I three bet the flop after raising out of the blinds I won't be able to make anyone call more than one bet at any point in the hand. I think a turn donk would freeze up the flop raiser and he won't raise, but, like TT said, that's the best play if he will raise. But given that this turn is getting bet 100% of the time, I thought getting these suckers to put in two big bets was ok.

This isn't in any way standard, and I've never played a hand like this before. SOP for me, OOP with a good hand is to jam. But this one is unique because of the line-up, and I thought it made sense at the time. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but, for the sake of argument, assuming the turn gets bet by someone 100% of the time, I'm not sure this isn't a good play in this spot.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

ok, why TT posted this hand instead of brettbrettr?

Is this a new cool trend on 2+2 to ask your friend post your hand for you?

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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ok, why TT posted this hand instead of brettbrettr?

Is this a new cool trend on 2+2 to ask your friend post your hand for you?

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I think I explained why in the OP. I love Brett, he is a great guy. We play together a lot, we go to lunch together, we have even traveled to AC together. I don't want to argue with him about optimal play which is something we tend to do, so to avoid personal conflicts I thought it would be best to give this route a try. A friendship is more important than being right, yet at the same time as a friend I want to see Brett's game grow and prosper.

For what it's worth, what the people in the thread have said so far is also my position. Also nobody was supposed to know it's Bret, but I forgot to edit out his name in one spot of the OP so the cats out of the bag... that was my error.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

brett, you really need to 3-bet the flop here. Even though bus has a fair amount of equity (flush draw), both the other 2p2er and the idiot are drawing slim enough to make you want to get a ton bets in on the flop.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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ok, why TT posted this hand instead of brettbrettr?

Is this a new cool trend on 2+2 to ask your friend post your hand for you?

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Dunno. We were talking about weird hands, and it came up. I wasn't going to post it, he just up and did.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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A friendship is more important than being right, yet at the same time as a friend I want to see Brett's game grow and prosper.

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HAHAHA. You're like mostly Hallmark card. Seriously, I don't care at all if people don't think I played this well. So far no one's convinced me that my line isn't at least reasonable. Like I said, it isn't anything I do all the time. But thought it reasonable at the time.

I do more and more things I wouldn't have done 6 months ago. Part of it is playing in a very regular game with the same people over and over. Part of it is thinking that "standard" is an overused term.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

The reason I think this Hero's line is fine is because, by the end of action on the turn, he's only going to get two BB in the pot (unless he's up against a monster), and all four players are seeing that turn no matter what.

My hand is face up as a flush draw, and Hero probably knows that 4-handed I'm capping that [censored] on the flop if it comes back to me, since I'm not afraid at all that Megadonkey will fold. So basically Hero can get 2 BB in by 3-betting the flop and leading the turn, or c/r the turn. Getting those two bets in on a non-heart turn, when the flush draw(s) have half the equity, is better IMO than getting one of those bets in on the flop.

This all assumes that you are confident enough that either Rich or Megadonkey are going to bet a non-heart turn.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

damnit little bus, I was replying to your post and then when I finished *bang* there is nothing to reply to. Anyway, it basically said that you should 3-bet the flop because other 2p2er is never putting in 2 bets on the turn with worse hand and megadonk might actually fold now that we are in big bet land.

edit: I might come to NYC this weekend. Does that 10/20 half kill game go then?

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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brett, you really need to 3-bet the flop here. Even though bus has a fair amount of equity (flush draw), both the other 2p2er and the idiot are drawing slim enough to make you want to get a ton bets in on the flop.

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My goal was to make as much money on the flop-turn as possible, so I hear you. In a sense, I'm waiting for a safe turn, but that doesn't mean I don't think I'm ahead and that doesn't mean I don't think I want a lot of bets going in this pot. I'm waiting because I think that by doing so I can squeeze an extra half bet out of these suckers:

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Three-betting the flop and getting one bet in from each of them on the turn will get me 1.5 bb's from each. Check-raising the turn will net me two.

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I'm busy now, but I need to think more about BDK's point about bad turn cards and how that might effect things.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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edit: I might come to NYC this weekend. Does that 10/20 half kill game go then?

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Yeah. Will has my number, give me a ring before Friday if you're coming. Or email me.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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megadonk might actually fold now that we are in big bet land.


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*Highly* unlikely. Like almost never. Megadonk does not fold any draw in pots bigger than 3 bbs.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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Anyway, it basically said that you should 3-bet the flop because other 2p2er is never putting in 2 bets on the turn with worse hand and megadonk might actually fold now that we are in big bet land.

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I don't think the answer is 100% obvious; very roughly, what Hero has to weigh is:

* the amount he extracts out of Bus by getting the 2-bets in on a brick turn + the amount he gets by not betting the flop when the turn is a heart

vs.

* the amount of equity he loses by having Megadonkey fold to the c/r on the turn times the likelihood that Megadonkey folds the turn.

It's not entirely obvious without more specific reads on Megadonkey what the result of that analysis would be. I'd be pretty confident though that MD is going to see the river.

This hand was played months ago, I think, so I don't remember if I had the nut flush draw, but Jonathan mentioned that what I should have done was just 3-bet the flop, or raised the turn. Coulda cleaned up A-outs.


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edit: I might come to NYC this weekend. Does that 10/20 half kill game go then?

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yeah dude, it's actually at the same place you played last time

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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megadonk might actually fold now that we are in big bet land.


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*Highly* unlikely. Like almost never. Megadonk does not fold any draw in pots bigger than 3 bbs.

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That's nice of him.

More on subject, what I tend to do in situations like this, where it's multiway, but I feel confident that my hand is best (currently), is bet like a maniac. When I think I've got the best hand, there's no way I'm closing the action unless it's been capped and I'm calling. And in that case, I'd have to reevaluate the turn, wondering why it got capped when I've shown strength.

To review: Bet like a maniac.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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So basically Hero can get 2 BB in by 3-betting the flop and leading the turn, or c/r the turn. Getting those two bets in on a non-heart turn, when the flush draw(s) have half the equity, is better IMO than getting one of those bets in on the flop.

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If Hero bets the flop and you cap, he's getting 2-3BBs in now, and another 2-3 on the turn. If he waits, and he's right about it not getting checked through (a big if) He'll get the same number of big bets on the turn.

Even if you managed to put 2 big bets cold to bus on the turn, he is unfortunately still getting the odds to call.

You can't protect your hand from the flush draw, but you should be worried about protecting your hand from non flush draws. If Rich or the button is ~3/45 to improve with a queen with a weaker kicker, You should wait until the turn when you could have a chance to face Rich with 2BB cold in a roughly 13BB pot.

Of course, this is all assuming we're ahead on the flop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

soma, this argument is not about protection, but about maximzing value.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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soma, this argument is not about protection, but about maximzing value.

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I'll bite, why isn't it about protection? We believe we have the best hand in a huge pot, and we have to assume all of our opponents are drawing live.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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soma, this argument is not about protection, but about maximzing value.

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I'll bite, why isn't it about protection? We believe we have the best hand in a huge pot

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The only thing we can protect against is a gutshot in a pot this big. And any A2 or A4 are still only drawing to the gutter.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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Coulda cleaned up A-outs.


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Oh yeah?

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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soma, this argument is not about protection, but about maximzing value.

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I'll bite, why isn't it about protection? We believe we have the best hand in a huge pot, and we have to assume all of our opponents are drawing live.

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like you said little bus is never folding his flush draw and we have to live with that. What we can do is make him put in a ton of bets. As for the others, 2p2er usually has a hand drawing to 3 outs (worse Q) or has us crushed (set) and megadonk is a megadonk and our goal against him is to make him put in a lot of money with whatever two cards he is holding.

So based on handreading these people either a) have too many outs that no line we can come up with will get them to fold b) are too dumb to know what odds are and are calling nyway or c) drawing slim to begin with that getting them to forfeit their equity isn't a big gain for us (other 2p2er).

IMO this hand is so close it probably doesn't matter either way.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

btw nice avatar bus [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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Coulda cleaned up A-outs.


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Oh yeah?

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I don't think this happens like, ever, but if the turn goes check by you, bet by Rich, and Margo raises, what's your plan?


FWIW, I like 3 betting the flop in this specific situation, since I know Little bus likes doing things like call capping draws for value (played w/ him enough). Also, planning to c/r the turn allows him to do some stupid [censored] which makes the hand harder to play. Good hand= Bet, Okay hand=Call, Bad hand=Fold.

TPTK= Good hand.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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btw nice avatar bus [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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I'd hit it.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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btw nice avatar bus [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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I'd hit it.

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Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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I don't think this happens like, ever, but if the turn goes check by you, bet by Rich, and Margo raises, what's your plan?

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Not a effin clue. Really, it depends a lot on the turn card, which is something I said I should consider more but don't have time but I keep coming back to this [censored] thread and I should'nt cuz I have [censored] to do, meh.

Anyways, I'm clearly not folding, because I've def underrepresented my hand, and the Bus will put me on AK as soon as I bet-call the flop. But I'm still not sure I'm three-betting either. A lot depends on the card.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

I think that the OP should tree-bet da frop.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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(other 2p2er).


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Hey Hobbs. Rich isn't a 2p2er. He's an ok player. I'm slightly concerned about his hand, as he seems to be the only person who could currently have me beat. But I'm not overly-worried.

You also said the goal is to get Bus to put in as much as possible. True, but I'm trying to get all three of them to put in as much as possible.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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(other 2p2er).


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Hey Hobbs. Rich isn't a 2p2er. He's an ok player. I'm slightly concerned about his hand, as he seems to be the only person who could currently have me beat. But I'm not overly-worried.

You also said the goal is to get Bus to put in as much as possible. True, but I'm trying to get all three of them to put in as much as possible.

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Well... Bus isn't losing money on the flop, most likely. So getting him to put in a lot on the flop is working to his advantage. But, you know that. And you know he likes to do stuff like call-cap draws. Hence, this could be a great opportunity for 'implicit collusion,' whereby you and Bus pump the pot because, in fact, you two are getting the best of it and the other two aren't.

Given that you can pretty much gaurentee four bets there (Bus is capping his frush), and you can't even really gaurentee one on the turn (and certainly no more than two), and you have to consider that you might lose opponents on the turn who would have given you money on the flop, I think the flop is the best moment to spring to action.


In general, I'm a big believer in "certainty" in poker. When you know you can get paid immediately, and you don't know that you can later, I like getting paid now. I think in general too many people underestimate the number of things that can happen on later streets that will complicate your best-laid plans for big-street value-creation.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

If I'd known Bus would call-cap, I'd three-bet. His doing this all the time with a draw is sort of news to me. I mean, I've seen him do it. But not always. Amd most times he's done it and then showed I thought he'd done it wrong and should have just three bet in the first place. But, yeah, if I'd know he'd cap then its an easy three bet.

Appreciate your thoughts on get money while ahead. Its usually what I do. This was just a bit of a curveball.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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btw nice avatar bus [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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I'd hit it.

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i've been forced to change my avatar once again.... but from one gimmick account to another, i'm sure you're a big fan of phish too, right? (hehe)

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

[ QUOTE ]
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btw nice avatar bus [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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I'd hit it.

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i've been forced to change my avatar once again.... but from one gimmick account to another, i'm sure you're a big fan of phish too, right? (hehe)

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Margo, You are the biggest http://www.tubafrenzy.org/weblog/arc...Sign-thumb.jpg ever.

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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megadonk might actually fold now that we are in big bet land.


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*Highly* unlikely. Like almost never. Megadonk does not fold any draw in pots bigger than 3 bbs.

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Mega donk also calls regularly with K, Q or A high on any flop, and folds on the turn. So I think we can't assume she is on a draw all the time.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

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A friendship is more important than being right, yet at the same time as a friend I want to see Brett's game grow and prosper.

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HAHAHA. You're like mostly Hallmark card.

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I care enough to post the very best [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: a 10/20 hand a friend played
 

[ QUOTE ]
In general, I'm a big believer in "certainty" in poker. When you know you can get paid immediately, and you don't know that you can later, I like getting paid now. I think in general too many people underestimate the number of things that can happen on later streets that will complicate your best-laid plans for big-street value-creation.

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I think that about sums it up. There is no guarantee that Brett will gain the maximum from check-raising the turn. But there is a guarantee that by 3-betting his expectation is at least equal to the turn raise if one opponent folds. That reason alone tells me 3-betting the flop is without a doubt the best option. Besides if Brett is lucky Lil Buss will retardedly raise the turn with A high & a flush draw, making the pot even bigger [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I think this hand is a good example why ABC play is usually the best policy.

PS for Lil Buss: You have been on the little buss to long mate, if you had the A flush draw you should be 3-betting that bizatch before it ever gets back to Brett. No more call-capping ok?

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]