I want to turn pro after college
 

I don't really know why I'm making this post. I know there are millions of turning pro threads all the time, but I think mine at least doesn't have any obvious parts that illicit, "you're an idiot, don't turn pro" responses, but I suppose I'll ( maybe deservedly?) get some.

OK, so I'm a Junior at the Wharton Business School at the University of Pennsylvania. If you don't know, it's the best undergraduate business school in the world and after you graduate you are supposed to go work 100 hours a week as an investment banker. Well, I really don't like school and I'm pretty much sure I won't like any job related to what I'm studying, or any other traditional job for that matter. I basically slide by with the bare minimum at school. I have a 3.0 gpa at this point, but I basically never go to class and just cram right before tests. I was a better student freshman year, but not much better, and have gotten slightly worse every semester.

I play poker well. I'm currently playing mostly 6max 3/6 and 5/10 NL. I've won 6 figures this year without playing that much at all. I enjoy poker, this summer I was playing a lot and did have times where I was sick of it, but certainly nowhere near how sick I got of my job working at a Hedge Fund the summer before. I have plenty of money for a bankroll and a lot of savings from both poker and the fact that when I was born my parents put away enough money that would cover 4 years in college into a fund with my name on it. Since the market has done far better than escalation of college prices in the last 20 years, I entered college with enough money to cover 4 years and have money left over.

The problems of course are the normal ones:

I'm somewhat afraid of the legislation- I have little desire to grind it out in a casino although moving out of the country if need be is not out of the question at all.

I'm somewhat afraid of burnout and obviously if I play poker for a few years after college it's going to be hard to get a job. Does anyone know what it would be like if say 3 years after graduating I wanted to get a job? Could I still get a job near the type of job I could've gotten at graduation?

My parents obviously wouldn't love the idea but they would be supportive so I'm not too worried. I have a serious girlfriend at the moment, and she doesn't love the prospect but I'm fairly certain I could convince her that Poker is pretty safe IF we were going to get engaged or something. I actually think one of the plusses of playing professionaly would be the ability to spend time with my future wife and kids whenever I wanted, specifically being able to do things like coach my kids sports teams and such.

So ya, I guess I'm just wondering what people think of my situation. I find that I have little incentive to work in school since I sorta plan on becoming a pro after college. I have no plans to dropout since it's not like i'm killing myself here and it's obviously a good idea to have the diploma just in case.

summary / cliff notes: I'm a junior and am sort of planning to turn pro after college. I've made 6 figures from minimal play this year and have a lot of money saved up. Tell me why I shouldn't turn pro or tell me that I should.

To emphasize, if you are in position to hire students out of business school, specifically for trading, banking, and such jobs. What's the difference and how big is it between a senior in college and a 25 year old guy who has been playing poker for the last 3 years?

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

get your degree. give poker a shot. if it doesn't work out for whatever reason, no big deal - go get a real job. i don't know how much more difficult that would be, but my guess is not much. if you don't you'll always regret it. i graduated 18 months ago and put off med school to play pro. there's good and bad things, recent legislation being pretty bad, but i'm happy with my decision. pm me if you want, i'll try to answer any questions you come up wiht.

jkratzer

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

I'd definitely say you should give it a shot going pro right out of school man, why not, I graduated in May and am glad I turned pro, it's great money, tons of freedom, etc, etc....

the legislation is obviously a big downside, but we really don't know what's going to happen, my plans are as follows: I plan on traveling the country these next 9 months while still playing online, then if the ban gets enfroced prob go to grad school in Canada or the UK for a year or 2, and then if it boils down to it I'll come back and get a real job.....

personally, I'm the type of person that takes the chance doing what I want, I'm never going to sit back 20 years from now and wonder "what if _____", I've already done this on a number of occasions in my life, and I'm happy w/ the way everything has turned out.... traditionally you're not "supposed" to come out of a school like that and play poker for a living, but who cares, do what's best for you... if that's what's going to make you happy, do it... you can always give it a shot and if you're not happy w/ it go and get a real job... just my 2 cents... feel free to PM me too if you have any other questions

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

I'll be the contrarian and say take the job for 1-2 years. During this time save as much as humanly possible for when you turn pro. The only downside is that online poker may not be possible at all after 2 years - well in that case you'd be looking for a job anyway and now you already have one.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

You sound like Maurice Clarett to me. ( I'm not insulting you either)

Going to a good school sounds like you have a great future.
Maurice Clarett was going to a good school and had a good future in the NFL ahead of him.

You think your ready to quit school and go pro make you dreams come true.
Maurice clarett left college early in order to make his rich NFL dreams come true.

Maurice clarett is a failed loser who is in jail.

I'm not busting your balls this was a super extreme example.

But use some mason or david logic.

Finish School W/Degree = +$$$$$$$$$$ good future
no matter what happens in your career you will have something to FALL ON. And no matter how well you OR OTHERS claim to do they usually need that something to fall on.

Finishing school is a long term winner no matter what happens in life.

One other thing YOUR PARENTS saved that money for your schooling your college is the T.V. Car. R.V. Boat that your parents never got to have won't not finishing school be like screwing them out of all the things they could have had. If you do go pro and make 6 figures the first thing you should do is give back all the money they saved for your college and the extra left over.

Good luck on whatever you decide.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

govman- i fully plan on finishing school, i stated that in my original post.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

[ QUOTE ]
govman- i fully plan on finishing school, i stated that in my original post.

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I know but I just thought of that Maurice Clarett Comparison and I did not know if I could ever use it again.

You have to admit it was good [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I made 100k this year 6months abroad though and I have 20k of it to show for. After bills taxes rent....did I say taxes.

If you can turn pro and only declare half your income your better off than the rest of us schmucks.

On a less serious note I had a chance to turn pro when I was at the 1-3 stud game at the el cortez. I figured it out if I could grind out a 27 dollar a day profit I could pay for my room at the Western and still eat prime rib every day. Alas my 48 dollar bankroll gave out a few hours in. And my mom would not give me anymore money so I lost my one PURE chance at turning pro........

Don't give up yours [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] GL

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

Sounds like your good to go; you certainly have the ability to play poker professionally, and if you'd rather do that then be an investment banker, then go for it.

My only question for you is how opposed are you to playing live for a living? I doubt online poker will shut down altogether, but if it does, could you see yourself moving to LA or Las Vegas to play live for a living? Would that be preferable to being an investment banker?

I guess it really doesn't matter though if you said you'd be willing to leave the country. This way, you've got lots of options to fall back on if things don't work out, so I really see no need to waste time on some boring job.

I'm actually in a somewhat similar situation as I've been averaging $7,500 a month for the last 4 months, and I dropped out of school a few months ago after deciding that my potential career was unendingly boring. I'm not as attached to online play though, and I'm thinking I'll eventually move at least part time to either Vegas or LA.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

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I think mine at least doesn't have any obvious parts that illicit, "you're an idiot, don't turn pro" responses, but I suppose I'll ( maybe deservedly?) get some.


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Except maybe that part. Sorry. Couldn't resist. Just me being a misanthropic pedantic douchebag.

Seriously, sounds like the first year or two AFTER you get your degree is the ideal time to give this a shot. Either you'll make a living out of it and find that it really suits you, or you'll get it out of your system.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll be the contrarian and say take the job for 1-2 years. During this time save as much as humanly possible for when you turn pro. The only downside is that online poker may not be possible at all after 2 years - well in that case you'd be looking for a job anyway and now you already have one.

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If he is going to work as an investment banker working 100 hours a week he won't have time to ever play poker. If he tried working already in a hedge fund and hated it, what makes you think that doing what he hated 100 hours a week is going to be any better?

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

I normally advise against anyone turning pro when they have some really decent skills (which the OP would appear to have), but if they're going to do it, right after college does seem like the ideal time.

And if anyone asks about the 2 year hole in the resume between graduation and first job, there's always the "post-graduate travel/finding myself" excuse to fall back on, which is particularly appropriate for that time in one's life.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

You should do what you are passionate about. If that is poker then do poker. If it's not then you should explore that and determine what you are passionate about and then do that. What keeps you up late and gets you up early? Thats the thing.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

Clarett is a loser. Regardless of his abilities, he is a loser and will likely remain so for the rest of his life. He is doomed to a life of self sabotage and defeat.

I get the sense that the OP is not a loser and would likely be successful in whatever he does. So he should find what makes him happy and then run with it. I get the sense that playing online poker will not supply the fulfillment that he is looking for, but who knows.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

Go for it dude.

You seem to have your ducks in a row and priorities stright. (1) Geting degree first to fall back on. (2) Sufficient bankroll. (3) Proven success. Seems like a great opportunity to give it a shot and see how it goes, and see how you like it. You may be giving up a substantial portion of your potential income not taking a job right out of school, but with a good degree rom Wharton you will be able to find something should you need to get out of poker, and besides, there's always gradschool.

Good luck!

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

I posted a similar thread a couple days ago and got shot down pretty badly by the consensus of replies. But you have quite a bit more poker experience than I do.

The one thing that worries me about your post is that it sounds like poker has caused your school work to deteriorate. You say you only have a 3.0 GPA, which will pretty much disqualify you from grad school, and will seriously harm your efforts to get a job, especially after taking time off to play poker. You need to get your grades up if your want your elite college education to mean anything for your future.

Of course, if you really just want to play poker as a career, you appear to have ability to do that, so go for it.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

Even if you take time off after school to play poker, plenty of people will be interested in hiring you just because of your Wharton degree. That alone will open doors and the prestige factor of that degree will still get you in with some fairly high end firms IMO (although maybe not AS high end as at graduation). So I think to a large degree it makes sense IF poker is still viable after you graduate.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

I agree with the 'ducks' comment. You are in great shape, especially if you spend your last year getting your GPA up -if you ever want to go back to business school for an MBA, this is important. I would take a full year and put 100% into poker after college and reevaluate after a year whether or not to continue or get a job. Not that I have any experience with this, but I feel that 1 year of post-college "goofing off" (if you are going to spin it as traveling/finding yourself) is much easier to explain than 2+.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

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My only question for you is how opposed are you to playing live for a living?

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pretty opposed. I am fairly certain that I would move out of the country to play online before going to the casino every day to play, assuming I'm either not married or my wife doesn't mind. When I decide whether or not to go pro after college, I will obviously very seriously consider the state of online poker.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

Ask yourself if you truly love poker? Seriously, being a poker professional is the road less travelled and it's a bumpy one so you need to some self-reflection.

Also having people tell you what to do is what a lot of people have been socialized to do in this world but no one can make you happy but yourself. Your parents gave you the gift an a good education now give yourself the gift of succeeding in something that you truly enjoy. If your worried about failing you may never get a chance to truly succeed no matter what choice you make.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

I recently had to make same decision.
1. Use my engineering degree and be misreable making good money and very stable.
2. Play poker and possibly make much more money or possibly go broke.
I decided since i don't have a family and am still young I should do this. This might be the only chance to do this so I better take it. I can always go to work if I need to.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

I'm guessing that for 95% of the people making this decision, after a couple years of poker, a 40 hour job would seem a lot less miserable.

That by itself makes it a positive decision.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

do you know the original penn crew? Do you know who ashok is? There is a strong contingent of Penn pros who after graduation went pro, who probably faced similar sentiments that you're currently facing.

There are also many successful players who plan to or already entered the work force, ask doug kim or strassa. It's entirely up to you, but if you're not really enjoying Wharton, why don't you take classes you would like? Your post made it sound you're just going to back into poker and poker is going to be the option. You tell yourself, you'll have that business degree, but if you're not really enjoying Wharton now, what makes you think you'd enjoy a wall street job? During my 4 years at penn, I regretted not just taking classes I would feel passionate about, instead of mindlessly pursuing something I initially set on based on extrinsic motivations. Don't waste that education, man. This doesn't mean you shouldn't go pro, you can still go pro, but also get the most out of your college experience.

Good luck.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

Turn pro now. Don't even bother getting the degree. You only live once. Get the easy money while they are still there. Then do whatever you want with your profits and enjoy life.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn pro now. Don't even bother getting the degree. You only live once. Get the easy money while they are still there. Then do whatever you want with your profits and enjoy life.

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Idiot.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

Obviously get your degree, and I agree with the sentiment of trying to bump your gpa up, if you ever decide to go to grad school, it's obviously important. Once you've finished your coursework, do whatever the f you want. How many people get that chance? Live in another country, take time off, play online, play brick and mortar, whatever. Screw starting your career, screw Ibankings (I did it after school), do what you want.

This is one of the few times you'll be able to look the world in the face and say 'go f yourself' and live it out your way. Who knows, you mave out of the country, live a wonderful adventure and make some coin while all your boys are going to happy hour on Friday night, only to go back to the office after three chicken wings and a beer. Be prudent with your money, plan for a future without poker and live life.

I'm stuck in a cube right now thinking about a hand I lost last night not working. Living in the cube jungle isn't exactly what it's cracked up to be. If times were different and I was in a position to make six figures doing something I enjoyed after school, id' do it without hesistation. If you're smart with your money, you'll hopefully have enough to do something you love without having to worry about a salary. Say you save enough for a decent house and yu want to become a teacher, having a house fully paid for while making a teachers salary is something a lot of people would kill for. If you want to open your own business, there you go. Just do it though.

People won't care you took off two or four years after school to travel and work for yourself. Hell, try and get a job at a consulting company, they'll love the fact you've got that'outside the box' mentality. I worked at and Ibank out of school, quit and bounced around for a few years and then went work for w big 5 (at the time) consultancy. It can be done.

Good luck.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

I, for one, would be very hesitant to hire a 'failed' poker player. Even tho you're a winning player, most people who gamble (poker=gambling for most people out there) are not, and someone who has spent 3 years gambling probably has a problem. And you do NOT want to hire a degenerate gambler for a job that requires trust with other people's money.

Not everyone thinks like this of course, but I wouldn't even mention poker in my resume if I were you.

Also, you don't HAVE to get a 100 hr/week job in investment banking if you don't want. There are actually plenty of 40 hr/week jobs out there. And you'll still have plenty of time to play. Your whole life will be better if it's balanced.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

[ QUOTE ]

Obviously get your degree, and I agree with the sentiment of trying to bump your gpa up, if you ever decide to go to grad school, it's obviously important. Once you've finished your coursework, do whatever the f you want. How many people get that chance? Live in another country, take time off, play online, play brick and mortar, whatever. Screw starting your career, screw Ibankings (I did it after school), do what you want.

This is one of the few times you'll be able to look the world in the face and say 'go f yourself' and live it out your way. Who knows, you mave out of the country, live a wonderful adventure and make some coin while all your boys are going to happy hour on Friday night, only to go back to the office after three chicken wings and a beer. Be prudent with your money, plan for a future without poker and live life.

I'm stuck in a cube right now thinking about a hand I lost last night not working. Living in the cube jungle isn't exactly what it's cracked up to be. If times were different and I was in a position to make six figures doing something I enjoyed after school, id' do it without hesistation. If you're smart with your money, you'll hopefully have enough to do something you love without having to worry about a salary. Say you save enough for a decent house and yu want to become a teacher, having a house fully paid for while making a teachers salary is something a lot of people would kill for. If you want to open your own business, there you go. Just do it though.

People won't care you took off two or four years after school to travel and work for yourself. Hell, try and get a job at a consulting company, they'll love the fact you've got that'outside the box' mentality. I worked at and Ibank out of school, quit and bounced around for a few years and then went work for w big 5 (at the time) consultancy. It can be done.

Good luck.

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avatar hijack:

where did you get your avatar

it is just awesome

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

at least you're gonna finish which is more than you can say for a lot of people on here who quit school and put all their eggs in one basket

good 4 u

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

hi mak,

i stopped reading after this: "OK, so I'm a Junior at the Wharton Business School".

poker sucks. i've followed your posts and im sure you are a good winning player but you've also run insanely hot over large sample sizes. you may run break even for your next 100k hands. who knows. but i know once you hit a cold streak you'll hate it and realize poker sucks.

you have a great education - dont let it go to waste is my advice

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

The nice thing about trying pro right after college is that if it doesn't work out, you don't have to put "failed poker pro" on your resume. Just say you spent two years traveling, doing the typical post-college finding yourself thing before settling down. Just don't say that you were traveling to Vegas and AC, and don't say what you were doing when you got there.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

Seriously, you don't need to put you played cards on your resume, you could explain it away as travelling or something along those lines. Don't say finding yourself. If i were an interviewer and you said that, I'd punch you in the face.

I don't remember where I got my avatar, but I agree it's great and I look at it for inspiration instead of pics of the wife and kid.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

[ QUOTE ]
hi mak,

i stopped reading after this: "OK, so I'm a Junior at the Wharton Business School".

poker sucks. i've followed your posts and im sure you are a good winning player but you've also run insanely hot over large sample sizes. you may run break even for your next 100k hands. who knows. but i know once you hit a cold streak you'll hate it and realize poker sucks.

you have a great education - dont let it go to waste is my advice

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the compliment.

are you a pro?

i agree i may have run hot to win at the rate i have, even though i've played 1/2NL+ for over 150k hands so it's not like a small sample though admittedly not huge. i do not think it's possible for me to break even over 100k hands without the games getting drastically worse, but maybe i'm wrong.

i also don't think poker is all peaches, and i am sure there will be days or weeks or even months where i find it boring or even terrible if i end up being a pro for a number of years. however, i honestly think i would find it less boring/horrible than the grind of a more traditional job, especially given that if i hate it for a couple weeks, i can just not play for a couple weeks.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

[ QUOTE ]
do you know the original penn crew? Do you know who ashok is? There is a strong contingent of Penn pros who after graduation went pro, who probably faced similar sentiments that you're currently facing.

[/ QUOTE ]

i do not. i wouldn't mind being put in touch if you think it would be helpful to me in making the decision and balancing life and poker if i do turn pro.


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There are also many successful players who plan to or already entered the work force, ask doug kim or strassa. It's entirely up to you, but if you're not really enjoying Wharton, why don't you take classes you would like?

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the thing is i have very little academic interests in any field. i've been told it's impressive how little interest i have in anything academic given how smart i am.


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Good luck.

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thanks. it really is a tough spot, although i guess a good problem to have, and i hope if i do turn pro i won't regret it, but i do like the idea more the more i think about it.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

[ QUOTE ]
but i know once you hit a cold streak you'll hate it and realize poker sucks.


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I've broken even for 100k hands before and I KNOW poker sucks, I don't like to play sometimes either when running bad but I also know with certainty its 10000x better than having to wake up at 8am every day to go to some job. At least for me im positive even with how much poker sucks, its nothing close to a job in the workforce. At least when poker is sucking you can play at your own convenience and get your hands in or whatever, if your job is sucking oh well, tough luck, you have to go and every day at that. My mom has had a job with the same company for over 25 years and just talking with her and seeing how much it affects her just re-affirms to me exactly why I do not want a job. She has a masters degree fwiw.

Re: I want to turn pro after college
 

I know someone whose gone pro playing $50 nl and $100 nl who doesn't even like to play much at all. He has been doing this for 3 years or so I believe so i'd say mak15 is in great shape....