seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

took azk, et al, advice and started 3bettin qq pf.

so now when the tag 4bets or pushes, i was ridiculed for even mentioning folding by a few others.

cool. just checked my last 16k hands. aipf with qq 4 times and lost all to better hands.

cool, lets check my other allins pf. aipf 7 other times. was against qq 4 times, aa once, aks once and jj once. jj was against a 50/25 lag fwiw.

azk and others please forgive me for my skepticism.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

bad luck comes in different forms. you know this as well as anyoen

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

Skepticism is a trait of a winning poker player.

More often than not if I recall your posts, you were committed to putting all the chips in preflop not because you rated to be so far ahead of the opponents' ranges, but because pot odds required you to call.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

i really want to believe and trust you guys but it seems that there is a fundamental flaw in stacking off with qq in the games i play.

whats a good sample size?

soon i will go thru the rest of my hands and look at every allin (even ones im not involved in.) i would be surprised if the data supported playing qq for 4bets.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

victor delete a pm

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

deleted josh.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

So, to be clear, you will get allin PF to a 4-bet with Queens?

4-bets PF means AA an awful lot of the time except at the smallest of micros and the nl400+ levels.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

I actually have the same problem with KK at $10. I've lost so many preflop allins with it against AA (and KJ/AT a couple of times) that KK is an overall loser for me. It's only over 11K hands but still.

I just don't know when to fold it...

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, to be clear, you will get allin PF to a 4-bet with Queens?

4-bets PF means AA an awful lot of the time except at the smallest of micros and the nl400+ levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that simple. Sometimes even when you're behind the opponent's range you still have to call. See the post I just bumped.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I actually have the same problem with KK at $10. I've lost so many preflop allins with it against AA (and KJ/AT a couple of times) that KK is an overall loser for me. It's only over 11K hands but still.

I just don't know when to fold it...

[/ QUOTE ]

General rule of thumb: for 100 BBs, never fold KK preflop. The math just isn't there.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

Ok, graet. In that case I just run really bad with KK.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, graet. In that case I just run really bad with KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like it to me.

Edit: It may not seem like it, but an 11k run is still a very small sample size to jujdge how well you play a single given hand. If you got KK as often as you are supposed to, in those 11k hands you got KK about 52 times. That's still few enough times that just a couple big data spikes (like getting stacked) can really throw off the results.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, to be clear, you will get allin PF to a 4-bet with Queens?

4-bets PF means AA an awful lot of the time except at the smallest of micros and the nl400+ levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that simple. Sometimes even when you're behind the opponent's range you still have to call. See the post I just bumped.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but I think a beginner/early intermediate wouldn't go far wrong with the rule 'a HU 4-bet when effective stacks are deep == AA'.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

db, i play 400+ exclusively.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
db, i play 400+ exclusively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weird. I can't remember the last time a TAG 4-bet and called a shove with me and showed anything but AK. Maybe happened once in my last 40k hands?

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
db, i play 400+ exclusively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weird. I can't remember the last time a TAG 4-bet and called a shove with me and showed anything but AK. Maybe happened once in my last 40k hands?

[/ QUOTE ]


so true. that or A7s

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

fwiw Vic, I feel pretty much that a 4 bet in the games we play in is virtually always AA, KK and AK. I dunno, maybe it's an UB thing.

Obv. I still push every time and then berate myself afterwards.

Grunch can you link it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, to be clear, you will get allin PF to a 4-bet with Queens?

4-bets PF means AA an awful lot of the time except at the smallest of micros and the nl400+ levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not that simple. Sometimes even when you're behind the opponent's range you still have to call. See the post I just bumped.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grunch where is this post? I looked for it and you've posted in so many threads recently I am not sure which one you are referring to.

Thanks.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

[ QUOTE ]
db, i play 400+ exclusively.

[/ QUOTE ]


In which case, you're doing nothing wrong.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

Obviously things are very situation dependent, and also, having a good image can play a part in how strongly you can get away with playing queens preflop. But in general, even though I can play pretty LAG at times, I've always played queens pretty cautiously before the flop. I just don't think preflop is the place to gun it out with that hand. Most of the time your equity is pretty marginal when a lot of chips go into the pot. (Save for the times you can include a decent number of dominated hands in your opponent's range when a lot of money goes in. And that's usually not the case, particularly in nitty online games.)

If you play them more passively preflop, then in those favorable spots where you actually have an overpair and someone else has a smaller one (or TPTK or something), nobody puts you on queens and you end up making money against hands that might've either folded preflop to a big reraise, or been suspicious postflop. And if you hit a crappy flop (ace or king, highly coordinated middle cards, etc), you get away cheaper.

I definitely acknowledge the other side, which is that if your opponents will not fold their dominated range to pf 3- and 4-bets, then getting a bigger preflop pot does behoove you. And the latter might certainly be true in a lot of shorthanded games where ranges are wider, etc.

However, I thought I'd play devil's advocate to the argument of blindly willing to raise and reraise preflop with queens like they're the nizzles.

-S

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

I'm with Sunny here. I also play QQ preflop pretty cautiously preflop at various levels, and I think that's fine for all games between 25-100, and most nl200 games, but some nl200 games and most games above that you need to stand up to pressure much more and get it in early, IMHO.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

What stakes do you play, QQ is good pretty often in 5/10+ and probably in 3/6+ too. Think people are alot less likely to 3bet/4bet or call ai with medium/weak hands in the lower games fwiw.

Re: seriously why do i keep stacking off with qq pf?
 

Victor, as Sunny said, it's situation dependent and image dependent. But I'm sure you already know this, so I'll try to give some examples instead. For all of the examples, let's assume 100 BB stacks and villain's stats that are somewhat normal. Yeah, if a villain is 10/3, you could probably even fold KK, but that's an extreme case.

In a blind battle, I'm almost never folding QQ preflop. Example:
CO opens for 14, hero (BB) 3-bets to 50, CO makes it 150.
I shove here everytime. His range includes lots of hands that you beat (possible JJ/TT) and of course AK, as well as the occasional bluff 4-bet. Factor in the fact that many players 4-bet AK 100% of the time, while they flat call AA/KK some of the time, and that makes a shove very +EV.

Example 2:
UTG opens for 14, hero 3-bets in the BB to 50, UTG makes it 150.
This is a situation where I'm more likely to fold, especially if UTG is TAG and definitely if UTG is a nit. Sure, the same rule applies that AK is weighted more heavily, but his range is much tighter from UTG, and if he knows that you know that, then your range for 3-betting is much tighter as well. So either he's trying to fold out your good hand (unlikely), or more likely he has you crushed. Of course, if UTG is 30/20, I'm shoving here.

Example 3:
Hero (CO) opens to 14, SB 3-bets to 50, BB shoves for 400.
I find that this is AA/KK so much more of the time than it is AK, so I fold here.

In all of the examples above, I'm assuming that I'm playing a standard TAG style. If I were a 30/20 LAG, I don't think I could ever see folding QQ preflop without some kind of read or an rather rare situation. On the other hand, if I'm a 15/10 player, when people 4-bet me, it's very likely that I'm toast as they know my range is really tight, yet they're still coming at me.

It really just comes down to your reads on the players and the situation. But that's probably all everyone ever tells you on the forums, so I'll stop. There are some players whose 4-bet always = AK, while for others it's not true. I guess just watch people carefully to figure out what their ranges are. There are also some players who make obvious "please fold I have AK" 4-bets, while for many it is always the same size. In these situations it's easy to know when to shove TT for value.