putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

Villain is 24/14/4 over 1000 hands. This sesh (100 hands) he is on some kind of agro rampage. Here are some hands from his play:

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $378.98
CO: $2253.12
Button: $1324.25
SB: $1139.5
Hero: $1067

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $35</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $130</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $350</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1047</font>,
<font color="#cc0000">SB folds</font>.

The hand above happens 5 hands after I sat down (altho he knows that I am a 21/18 tag that is aggro pre).
In another hand in SB vs BB: He opens I repop AQs he pushes.

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
3 players
Converter


Stack sizes:
Hero: $2207.02
SB: $495.95
BB: $1769

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $33</font>, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $135</font>, Hero folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises all-in $462.95</font>, BB calls.
He is BB here and has Ad5d.

Besides being on an agro rampage I kept winning hands on the flop vs him. The last 3 hands we've seen flop I've taken it away. 2 times legitametly and one time I 3-bet his bs check raise on a 3sTh2h board. So I feel this guy is getting very frustrated by me.

Now on to the hand:
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $660.5
Button: $1889.8
SB: $1592.15
Hero: $1971.02

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $35</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($70, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $70</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $240</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $1552.15</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $3174.3


I feel that raising and getting it in is better than flatting because of the overagro history (esp on flop). His push kinda scares me because he is probably not bluffing (altho he could be tilt shoving overs).

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

"His push kinda scares me because he is probably not bluffing"

Umm, then fold? This is based too much on the flow of the game IMO but either way you're probably getting it in as about a 50/50 or a big dog. So id prob fold, but it is close

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

tramb. the guy seems on tilt and he is instapushing and instacalling a lot. can I really fold this? I mean the idiot could be putting it in with A8 or 34 offsuit. Also I was expecting him to at least three-bet my raise as a rebluff (I was shoving over this).

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

did some equity calc:

Wins Ties Equity
51.05% 0.44% 51.50% ( 88+,22,55,A8, 34, 67, AdKd-Ad2d, KdQd-Kd5d, QdJd-Qd8d,JdTd-Jd8d, 9d8d-5d4d,9d7d-6d4d )
48.06% 0.44% 48.50% ( TcTd )

w/o A8

Wins Ties Equity
54.45% 0.49% 54.94% ( 88+,22,55, 34, 67, AdKd-Ad2d, KdQd-Kd5d, QdJd-Qd8d,JdTd-Jd8d, 9d8d-5d4d,9d7d-6d4d )
44.57% 0.49% 45.06% ( TcTd )

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

seems like the easiest preflop 3 bet ever

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

3-betting preflop is probably the best way to go.

As played, on the flop, I'm not a huge fan of your raise. He's already shown discipline in is aggressiveness by folding when the jig is up. Why not call him down and let him implode?

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
seems like the easiest preflop 3 bet ever

[/ QUOTE ]
3-betting pre sux because:
a) what do you do when 4-bet cuz i feel it's comming. 3-betting pre allows him to put us in [censored] spot with a lot of overcard hands.
b) what do you do if he calls and the flop comes Q high? you cbet and get c/raised. I think you should be checking behind. So on most flops you will have a bloated pot where it will be hard to extract value.
c) calling allows us to bluff-call on 1-overcard flops and raise undercard flops and get a 3-bet bluff from him.I love to see a flop vs this guy since this is the street where i've been beating on him the most.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
a) what do you do when 4-bet cuz i feel it's comming.

[/ QUOTE ]

jizz everywhere then 5-bet? (see hand #1)


[ QUOTE ]
In another hand in SB vs BB: He opens I repop AQs he pushes.

[/ QUOTE ]

you folded i take it?

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

yeah i folded.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

ok I did some calcs about shoving over his 4-bet. If he 4-bets to 370 and his calling range for a push is AK,JJ+, we need 52% fold equity to make pushing break even.

EV if called = -409. EV if folds = 370

370*x+(1-x)*-409=0
x=52%.

So if he 4-bets we need to shove against this guy.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

heh i mean if he's as on tilt as he sounds i can see him 4betting all sorts and then maybe even stacking off with 77-99.

so yeah i feel pretty great about getting 4-bet pre.


as you played it i think stacking off is fine, i just prefer juicing it preflop.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

I think calling is arite. Results?

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
seems like the easiest preflop 3 bet ever

[/ QUOTE ]
c) calling allows us to bluff-call on 1-overcard flops and raise undercard flops and get a 3-bet bluff from him.I love to see a flop vs this guy since this is the street where i've been beating on him the most.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

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[ QUOTE ]
seems like the easiest preflop 3 bet ever

[/ QUOTE ]
c) calling allows us to bluff-call on 1-overcard flops and raise undercard flops and get a 3-bet bluff from him.I love to see a flop vs this guy since this is the street where i've been beating on him the most.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

[/ QUOTE ]

Seconded.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
seems like the easiest preflop 3 bet ever

[/ QUOTE ]
3-betting pre sux because:
a) what do you do when 4-bet cuz i feel it's comming. 3-betting pre allows him to put us in [censored] spot with a lot of overcard hands.
b) what do you do if he calls and the flop comes Q high? you cbet and get c/raised. I think you should be checking behind. So on most flops you will have a bloated pot where it will be hard to extract value.
c) calling allows us to bluff-call on 1-overcard flops and raise undercard flops and get a 3-bet bluff from him.I love to see a flop vs this guy since this is the street where i've been beating on him the most.

[/ QUOTE ]

d) have some balls this is poker.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

I don't understand why many players are so robotic. Please provide some reasoning besides lol. And RockyElsom, I'd rather win than show my balls to my opponents. It is really hard to calculate the EV of calling w/ TT vs 3-betting TT, but you could at least provide some arguments why you think 3-betting is better.

I mean after I three-bet, provided that he doesn't 4-bet 70% of the time there would be overcard on the flop and it will be really hard to extract value from worse hands.

While if I call I am almost guaranteed a bluff 3-bet on the flop in the 30% time I flop overpair. If the flop has an overcard I can excercise pot control and call him down.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

basically what it comes down to is that 3-betting TT when 150 bb deep vs overagro clown is not the best idea because if it comes to putting it in he will usually have overcards/higher pairs. WB/SA situation.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

Because we have a strong hand that is good against a guy, who clearly with history, likes to sling chips around. The key is, we might have to make a close call here and there.

You can't just try and play for pot control everytime you come up against a maniac.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because we have a strong hand that is good against a guy, who clearly with history, likes to sling chips around. The key is, we might have to make a close call here and there.

You can't just try and play for pot control everytime you come up against a maniac.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think arguing about preflop is v important in this hand. You can't prove to me that the EV of 3-bet is higher than calling because solving for preflop EV is extremely complicated. In addition, post flop play is much more important than pre. That's why I posted the hand. I never intended to argue about pre.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't think arguing about preflop is v important in this hand. You can't prove to me that the EV of 3-bet is higher than calling because solving for preflop EV is extremely complicated. In addition, post flop play is much more important than pre. That's why I posted the hand. I never intended to argue about pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its clear your intentions are on keeping this pot manageable. You are not comfortable with felting this hand minus a set, end of story. Against this guy, I think you're leaving a lot at the table.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

wtf you folded AQs preflop vs that guy in a blind fight?

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

Ok well the problem is you seem to contradict yourself in a few places in an effort to lead everyone to say "ya you played it fine cooler" People are saying 3 bet because he has shown a propensity to get it in light with the A5 hand. You will also have position on him with what figures to be the best hand, so why not raise? If i am calling this pre, its to play it conservatively and to show him just because im calling doesnt mean i cant have a hand for later hands.

I am 3 betting this a ton vs this type of player. I don't think i'd raise this flop with out the intent of getting it in, which i wouldn't be too happy about. His range is big draws, pairs and draws, sets, or maybe like AA or KK or whatever. This range is hateful toward your hand. The fact that you are willing to get it in here like this for 150 bb and not reraise preflop means that he is using his image better than you are using it against him.

summary: reraise preflop, if you dont want to do that, dont reraise this flop unless you really are willing to get it in. He has not shown in any of those hands of letting someone else take the lead without them being all in. He wasnt going to call, then check call a bet or two with 89. Thats not how he rolls and you have to adapt to that.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

i think irock hit the nail on the head when he said dont raise this flop if you dont intend on getting it in on the flop. but with all your reads that youre trying to give us about how much of a spewmonkey this guy is i dont see why you dont just try to get it all in pf.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

this is the AQ hand. Do you seriously call this?

No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
3 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Button: $1005.9
SB: $1283.05
Hero: $2179.02

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $35</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $130</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $1273.05</font>, Hero folds.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think irock hit the nail on the head when he said dont raise this flop if you dont intend on getting it in on the flop. but with all your reads that youre trying to give us about how much of a spewmonkey this guy is i dont see why you dont just try to get it all in pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

cuz its 150 bb deep and KQ vs TT is 44/56 and TT vs JJ is 18/81. Thats why. Also I don't see how seeing a flop vs a tilter who I've is super frustrated by me on the flop is bad. The Ad5d was vs a guy with 50 BBs he had already reraised and was getting approx 2-1.

I think that my edge is higher postflop than pre w/ this hand vs this guy.

I rock. What are you smoking man? He needs big draws? This monkey is shoving any reasonable draw given history. See the range for the equity calc.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

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[ QUOTE ]

I don't think arguing about preflop is v important in this hand. You can't prove to me that the EV of 3-bet is higher than calling because solving for preflop EV is extremely complicated. In addition, post flop play is much more important than pre. That's why I posted the hand. I never intended to argue about pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its clear your intentions are on keeping this pot manageable. You are not comfortable with felting this hand minus a set, end of story. Against this guy, I think you're leaving a lot at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is utter bs. I three bet light a lot (usually have some FE) and never hesitate to get it in light when I think that it is +EV.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post12747909

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that my edge is higher postflop than pre w/ this hand vs this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]
How can that be when you don't know what to do after raising this flop? No offense.

Edit: Also, jesus man. Don't post a hand if your gonna go all defensive and feel offended when posters offer their advice. iRocks post was spot on.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
seems like the easiest preflop 3 bet ever

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why many players are so robotic. Please provide some reasoning besides lol. And RockyElsom, I'd rather win than show my balls to my opponents. It is really hard to calculate the EV of calling w/ TT vs 3-betting TT, but you could at least provide some arguments why you think 3-betting is better.

I mean after I three-bet, provided that he doesn't 4-bet 70% of the time there would be overcard on the flop and it will be really hard to extract value from worse hands.

While if I call I am almost guaranteed a bluff 3-bet on the flop in the 30% time I flop overpair. If the flop has an overcard I can excercise pot control and call him down.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're raising because you're "almost guaranteed" a bluff 3 bet by him, why are you so hesitant to put it in?

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think irock hit the nail on the head when he said dont raise this flop if you dont intend on getting it in on the flop. but with all your reads that youre trying to give us about how much of a spewmonkey this guy is i dont see why you dont just try to get it all in pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

cuz its 150 bb deep and KQ vs TT is 44/56 and TT vs JJ is 18/81. Thats why. Also I don't see how seeing a flop vs a tilter who I've is super frustrated by me on the flop is bad. The Ad5d was vs a guy with 50 BBs he had already reraised and was getting approx 2-1.

I think that my edge is higher postflop than pre w/ this hand vs this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah but playing the flop deep just panders to his spewy tendencies. TT doesn't have that much value this deep (i.e. you can't happily raise flop and get it in) and this guy's natural tendencies (to semibluff reraise alot) will be closer to the correct play, when your so deep. If you want to make his tiltiness hurt him instead of lead him closer to the correct play RR PF.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

I think 87 is superlight not 10s.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
i think irock hit the nail on the head when he said dont raise this flop if you dont intend on getting it in on the flop. but with all your reads that youre trying to give us about how much of a spewmonkey this guy is i dont see why you dont just try to get it all in pf.

[/ QUOTE ]





cuz its 150 bb deep and KQ vs TT is 44/56 and TT vs JJ is 18/81. Thats why. Also I don't see how seeing a flop vs a tilter who I've is super frustrated by me on the flop is bad. The Ad5d was vs a guy with 50 BBs he had already reraised and was getting approx 2-1.

I think that my edge is higher postflop than pre w/ this hand vs this guy.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah but playing the flop deep just panders to his spewy tendencies. TT doesn't have that much value this deep (i.e. you can't happily raise flop and get it in) and this guy's natural tendencies (to semibluff reraise alot) will be closer to the correct play, when your so deep. If you want to make his tiltiness hurt him instead of lead him closer to the correct play RR PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Requin I would disagree with this. As you see from the equity calc I am doing fine even against his pushing range. In addition, I think the flop will go a lot like this (as much as 80% of the time).


No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $660.5
Button: $1889.8
SB: $1592.15
Hero: $1971.02

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $35</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($70, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $70</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $240</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $800</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero pushes</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB folds</font>

Or alternatively he may reraise me to $1000 I push, he calls and flips over AJish.

And to the guy that said that I don't know what to do after raising on the flop I instacalled his push. I posted to check on my play. Given that I didn't reraise pf I think flatting flop is a crime.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

you think 80% of the time he's gonna put in half his stack and then fold? cmon man.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

btw if the AQ hand had happened after all the history in your original post i'd snap call. given it seemed to happen quite early on, fold is ok.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw if the AQ hand had happened after all the history in your original post i'd snap call. given it seemed to happen quite early on, fold is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ya exactly

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
btw if the AQ hand had happened after all the history in your original post i'd snap call. given it seemed to happen quite early on, fold is ok.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ya exactly

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
you think 80% of the time he's gonna put in half his stack and then fold? cmon man.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think this. What do you think a tilter is doing after he gets raised on the flop 4-th time in a row?

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

I'm confused. Either he is going to get it in with his whole range or put half his stack in then fold or something...or you are scared you are beat? Why post the hand if you don't want help? It seems you made a play and now need the concurrence of the rest of middle stakes to make yourself feel better.

If you don't want to discuss your hands analytically, why not just post it as a bad beat? A normal player when he puts it in on this flop has the range i described even if they are very aggro. If you think his range is wider than this (you seem to with your sweet response to my analysis), then call...if not, then fold, whats so hard to understand?

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you think 80% of the time he's gonna put in half his stack and then fold? cmon man.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think this. What do you think a tilter is doing after he gets raised on the flop 4-th time in a row?

[/ QUOTE ]

He did what you wanted him to do, what is the problem? '
Juice it up preflop so your flop decision will be a lot easier every time you dont flop a set. As it is you have to know that once you c/r the flop you are gonna get it in aswell but you will be pretty close to 50/50 vs his shove range. You just have to know that against this tiltmonkey you simply cant check/raise and then fold or check/raise not knowing what to do after that.
And saying that you c/r because he will ridic often (80%) 3bet with air and then fold is pretty damn optimistic. If *that* was your only plan in the hand,

"Im going to check/raise so he can 3bet bluff.... WAITTT A MINUTE damn what if he has a hand this time im toast if he has a hand damn what should I do. Should I fold now? Damn I should've really thought about this before check/raising"

its a bad plan.

Re: putting it in super light vs overagro 150 bbs deep. 1000NL
 

I posted this because he had JJ and I got stacked. I posted it w/o much analysis on my part to get some opinion because it is v unorthodox hand. After doing analysis on my own I really like my play after the debatable pf call. And yah he 3-bets bluff ridic often. This is my read and I trust it.