Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

Websites repeatedly say that AK ranks from the 4th to 10th best starting hand depending on site and whether the AK is sooted. For example:

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/poke...tinghands.html

http://www.4kingpoker.com/poker_play...g_ak_hands.php

Why is it not 14th since in my book:

AK < 22 33 44 55 66 77 88 99 TT JJ QQ KK AA

I have a lot of trouble playing AK so maybe some perspective on this will help me.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

Because AK does better against hand ranges than 22 will.

22 is dominated by a lot of hands and is at BEST a slight coinflip advantage against any hand.

AK is dominated only by AA or KK to some degree and is at WORST a coinflip in most other situations.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

AK < 22 - lol. Like recondite said, 22 is a flip against ANY TWO CARDS that don't have a 2 in them, and is a huge dog against any pair.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

A way to look at another way, AK and 22 are practically the same in made hand value (a pair of deuces being the very next rank up from Ace-King high) but AK has considerably more outs than 22 against another pair (6 outs + broadway straight for AK, only 2 outs for 22).

Also, AK dominates other commonly played big card hands, such as AQ, whereas the only hands 22 will dominate are highly unlikely to see the flop.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

Here is some perspective for AK:

1. It is the type of hand that likes to see all five cards.

2. The reason for 1. is that AK is a drawing hand.

3. AK is only dominated by two other hands. Against all other hands it is either a slight dog (QQ-TT), a coin flip (22-66) or is ahead from a bit (two undercards) to a lot (Ax or Kx).

So what is AK useful for? It is used to move all-in with. That's one of the key NL strategies with AK. By moving in with AK (either by coming over the top of a raiser, punishing a bunch of limpers or open-raising all-in when short), you can take advantage of some of it's features I listed above.

Another feature of AK is to win pots against hands like AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, etc. As well, AK being the very best drawing hand will make the nut straight or the nut flush when it's draw comes in, again potentially crushing those other A or K hands.

The place to be careful with AK is in deep stack situations. AK usually needs to be raised to cut the field (and get AQ to come along for a bad ride.). However, in deep stack scenarios, you can get calls from hand that will beat AK when it hits TPTK. A flop of A T 9 with two suits should not exactly be a happy day scenario in a multiway pot for AK (unless he has those two suits). You may be ahead at the moment but about half the deck would produce a turn card that could leave you drawing dead on the river.

Caution is required for these deepstack landmine type pots and flops. I try to get the betting done preflop and if I feel that villain has KK or AA by the a 4 or 5 bet then I'll just leave the hand there.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

22 is a microscopic 50.3%-49.7% favorite against one random hand. 22 is an underdog against 85s. 22 is an underdog against 2+ random hands. 22 often has an information disadvantage in a normal pot so it is hard to bet for value.

AK is a significant favorite over 1 or more random hands. AK is a big favorite over many good hands your opponents will play for a raise. AK can often semibluff cheaply or bet for value after the flop.

22 does slightly better than AK when your opponent has Q2-32, 22, or AA, and the AA shouldn't count because AK blocks half of the AA combinations. AK does better against the other hands your opponent can hold, often by a huge amount.

If you were playing 2 card stud, 22 would be the 13th best hand. Since you are playing a 7 card stud variant, 22 is at best a mediocre hand which is often overvalued, while AK is a very good hand. According to some of the PokerRoom stats, on average, 22 loses money in every position (although at some stakes and some positions, it comes out slightly ahead, which may be noise). AKo wins money in every position.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

Doyle Brunson tells stories of $500 coinflips with 22 and his opponent holding AK. His opponents usually gave up after losing a few thousand.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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Doyle Brunson tells stories of $500 coinflips with 22 and his opponent holding AK. His opponents usually gave up after losing a few thousand.

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this clearly proves 22 is the better starting hand IMO

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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Doyle Brunson tells stories of $500 coinflips with 22 and his opponent holding AK. His opponents usually gave up after losing a few thousand.

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this clearly proves 22 is the better starting hand IMO

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lol, unless the AK is suited, and the 22 doesn't have one of the AK's suit.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.084% 49.77% 00.31% 852207 5387.50 { AsKs }
Hand 1: 49.916% 49.60% 00.31% 849322 5387.50 { 2d2h }

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

OHHHHHHHHHHH SNAPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

if played well it does best in shorthanded pots. id rank it beweteen third and fifth depending on who is in the pot with you.

with lots of players in it goes down as you need to hit it harder.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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Doyle Brunson tells stories of $500 coinflips with 22 and his opponent holding AK. His opponents usually gave up after losing a few thousand.

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Have you ever heard of "hot and cold"?

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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Doyle Brunson tells stories of $500 coinflips with 22 and his opponent holding AK. His opponents usually gave up after losing a few thousand.

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this clearly proves 22 is the better starting hand IMO

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That was not my point. AK is only as good as the player that plays it. 22 is only as good as the player that plays it. AK is great for PFR and 3 betting, but generally plays very poorly after flop when both hands are face up and AK misses.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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That was not my point. AK is only as good as the player that plays it. 22 is only as good as the player that plays it. AK is great for PFR and 3 betting, but generally plays very poorly after flop when both hands are face up and AK misses.

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I'd say that's backwards. AK still has some value when it misses, but an unimproved pair of deuces can stand very little heat. When every card on the board is an overcard to your pair, you don't ever really know if you're ahead. Plus it gets counterfeit a lot.

I'd say 22 is certainly easier to play in most cases, since generally I'm playing for set value. Now and again it's reasonable to turn it into a bluffing hand on the flop, but for the most part fit or fold keeps this hand simple.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

AK is definitely a good hand as long as you do not overvalue it after the flop. The problem often is that people get into a big pot with it and cannot let go even against poor odds.

My results with AK improved a lot after learning to control pot size.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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That was not my point. AK is only as good as the player that plays it. 22 is only as good as the player that plays it. AK is great for PFR and 3 betting, but generally plays very poorly after flop when both hands are face up and AK misses.

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I'd say that's backwards. AK still has some value when it misses, but an unimproved pair of deuces can stand very little heat. When every card on the board is an overcard to your pair, you don't ever really know if you're ahead. Plus it gets counterfeit a lot.

I'd say 22 is certainly easier to play in most cases, since generally I'm playing for set value. Now and again it's reasonable to turn it into a bluffing hand on the flop, but for the most part fit or fold keeps this hand simple.

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Yes, of course AK still has value but an unimproved AK is exactly the same hand it was preflop...an unimproved A high with a K kicker. I would rather that someone pushes preflop with AK to use its fold equity than overplay AK to the end vs a donk that can't let go of a midpocket. I often see the AK overplayed and wonder about the thought process. AK 3 barrels are all the rage but are really nothing more than 7,2 3 barrels bluffing to the river.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

I definately agree that it is more difficult to know where you are with the 22.
Also, one of the best reasons to play an AK is that other players overplay even lesser aces such as AQ, AJ, and A10. This adds much to it's profitablilty.
Stupo

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

To answer your query as to why you find AK harder to play than 22 it's because most of the time 22 is useless after the flop and can be chucked away. Easy.

You can get trapped with AK if you don't realise that it's a drawing hand. If you don't hit, you have nothing. It's easy to forget this because it looks so sexy.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

I think theres quite a few areas here unexplored.

First, the nature of the question. How do we rank AK among the best starting hands. It depends. It depends on game format (limit, deepstackNL, shortstackNL/tourney), it depends on how many hands see flops etc. Why? Because hand values are not absolute. Our hands strength measured by strict equity, or measured by Expected Value, depends on the strength of our opponents cards. If we know our opponent only plays pairs for instance, AK has way more value than 22 does.... Every time we play 22 we are dominated, and only 2/13 times we are dominated with AK.

Second I think people are missing that both hands have a problem post flop when they whiff. Many times you are fold the best hand. bottom underpair unimproved still beats all unpaired hands, which might be a majority of our opponents holding. Same is true of AK. The last poster even suggested that if you dont hit with AK you have nothing... well thats just plain wrong... you have a hand that is the best non-pair hand, and you are OFTEN likely ahead. If you build a big pot at this point, though, you are OFTEN way behind and possibly drawing dead.

The ranking of hands not only depends on their innate preflop strength (equity using things like pokerstove), but also the range of our opponent or opponents, the mixture of hand types they are willing to play, the format of the game we are playing, the size of the stacks involved, how well our opponents play post flop, how good we are at reading hands, etc.

Thus, no real definitive hand ranking guides exist... I think using +EV based on actual play is probably nearly the best. Lets maximize our expectation with each decision.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

I love this thread. People are actually debating whether 2-2 or A-K is better? lol. AK is a premium hand, 2-2 is surely not. For many reasons. 2-2 is crushed by any pair higher than it. 2-2 is even an underdog to any suited-connected over-cards higher than 6. i.e. 2 gapped and even 3 gapped suited connectors like. Jc-7c is favored over 2-2. Can 2-2 be played any other way than for set-value? There are guranteed three over cards on the flop, how far you going to play a pair of twos. This whole arguement is ridiculous.

BTW - the doyle example was with AK (unsuited). AK suited has the edge. And all five cards are always seen, so no "poker" was being played. Also, someone stated AK was the best drawing hand. Maybe he meant because you were drawing to the nuts. But J-10 or 10-9 suited is statistically the best drawing hand to a straight or flush.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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The last poster even suggested that if you dont hit with AK you have nothing... well thats just plain wrong... you have a hand that is the best non-pair hand, and you are OFTEN likely ahead.



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This is precisely the thought process of someone who has trouble playing AK. Not saying that YOU do, but this is why people get carried away with their two pretty little cards.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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AK is definitely a good hand as long as you do not overvalue it after the flop. The problem often is that people get into a big pot with it and cannot let go even against poor odds.

My results with AK improved a lot after learning to control pot size.

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If you go back to basics, it should be pretty simple not to overvalue AK postflop.

What do you have really? If you don't hit the flop, you have two overcards. That's six outs, or 6.8:1 to hit on the turn, then if you miss, 6.7:1 to hit on the river.

And that's to get top pair, which probably is no good if there are obvious draws on the board.

If you think about it that way, it gets easier not to overvalue the hand.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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If you go back to basics, it should be pretty simple not to overvalue AK postflop.

What do you have really? If you don't hit the flop, you have two overcards. That's six outs,


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And if you are against one player, you are likely to have the best hand. How many outs is that?

The way you play a missed AK should be very different in limit and NL. In limit, unless you see significant action, you should probably see the river, and very often you should call a bet on the river. In NL, you can still try to win if the pot is small, but you generally don't want to play a large pot, even if you pick up one pair on the turn or river. This may mean you should fold on the flop.

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And that's to get top pair, which probably is no good if there are obvious draws on the board.


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No, it is probaly good if it hits, even if there was an obvious draw or two on the board. You still suffer from reverse implied odds in many situations, but don't overestimate how easy it is for someone to beat TPTK.

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If you think about it that way, it gets easier not to overvalue the hand.

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It also becomes more difficult to get full value out of what is still a decent hand. AK also often flops a gutshot and overcards, when the flop is QJx, QTx, JTx, or 3 to a wheel. AK is much stronger on flops that are likely to have missed your opponent, such as paired flops.

AK unimproved is significantly better than 22 unimproved. AK unimproved is a slight favorite against a random hand on most flops. 22 unimproved is an underdog against a random hand on most flops.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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AK is definitely a good hand as long as you do not overvalue it after the flop. The problem often is that people get into a big pot with it and cannot let go even against poor odds.

My results with AK improved a lot after learning to control pot size.

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If you go back to basics, it should be pretty simple not to overvalue AK postflop.

What do you have really? If you don't hit the flop, you have two overcards. That's six outs, or 6.8:1 to hit on the turn, then if you miss, 6.7:1 to hit on the river.

And that's to get top pair, which probably is no good if there are obvious draws on the board.

If you think about it that way, it gets easier not to overvalue the hand.

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severely undervaluing it is just as bad

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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AK is definitely a good hand as long as you do not overvalue it after the flop. The problem often is that people get into a big pot with it and cannot let go even against poor odds.

My results with AK improved a lot after learning to control pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you go back to basics, it should be pretty simple not to overvalue AK postflop.

What do you have really? If you don't hit the flop, you have two overcards. That's six outs, or 6.8:1 to hit on the turn, then if you miss, 6.7:1 to hit on the river.

And that's to get top pair, which probably is no good if there are obvious draws on the board.

If you think about it that way, it gets easier not to overvalue the hand.

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severely undervaluing it is just as bad

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If anything people overvalue small pocket pairs way too much.

'Hey look a 4 and another 4, a pair! I got 23o and 34o crushed!!'

Don't be afraid of AK just because it isn't a pair yet. (drawing hand lol)

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

I didn't bother to read all the post but if you go by the list most serious poker players use and the one all others are compared to it is made by Sklansky and Malmuth and has AKs as the 5th best hand. Group 1: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs. However I recently read or heard that in holdem its a better stategy to wait until the flop to get to the $$ in because that's when the real odds shift happens, hence the 22 vs. AKs or os. (Obviously) If you flop an A or a K or 4 to a straight or flush the odds shift dramatically.

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

AK just plays better.

You can reraise with Ak from any position, you can shove AK because you know it's at least a coin flip unless you are up against AA or KK.

You cannot 3barrel 22 with 4 overcards there.

OF COURSE, if you push all in preflop, than 22 wins more. But we are talking about actually playing it postflop.

After about 300k hands in my pt. AK is the 4th best hand after AA, KK and QQ

Re: Ranking of AK among best starting hands
 

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AK just plays better.

You can reraise with Ak from any position, you can shove AK because you know it's at least a coin flip unless you are up against AA or KK.

You cannot 3barrel 22 with 4 overcards there.

OF COURSE, if you push all in preflop, than 22 wins more. But we are talking about actually playing it postflop.

After about 300k hands in my pt. AK is the 4th best hand after AA, KK and QQ

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no it doesnt


---
12,585,434,400 games 0.044 secs 286,032,600,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.334% 49.39% 00.95% 6215338932 119416020.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 49.666% 48.72% 00.95% 6131263428 119416020.00 { random }


---



---
33,561,158,400 games 0.086 secs 390,246,027,906 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.751% 64.91% 00.84% 21783519396 283348986.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 34.249% 33.40% 00.84% 11210941032 283348986.00 { random }


---



---
1,232,858,880 games 0.005 secs 246,571,776,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.793% 39.64% 10.15% 488757492 125124288.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 50.207% 40.06% 10.15% 493852812 125124288.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }


---



---
636,977,088 games 0.005 secs 127,395,417,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.504% 35.21% 00.29% 224290476 1863336.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 64.496% 64.20% 00.29% 408959940 1863336.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }


---


---
410,952,960 games 0.001 secs 410,952,960,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.643% 31.36% 00.29% 128865852 1173954.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 68.357% 68.07% 00.29% 279739200 1173954.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }


---



---
739,715,328 games 0.005 secs 147,943,065,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.540% 24.68% 15.86% 182578824 117305460.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 59.460% 43.60% 15.86% 322525584 117305460.00 { JJ+, AKs, AKo }


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