Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

It seems weird to have hit this mark, since I consider myself more of a lurker, but here I am. I've been considering writing this post for a while, and I guess this "milestone" has given me the motivation to do it.


Earlier this year, I took a fair amount of time off from 2+2. I reflected on the game a lot (as always) and did a lot of coaching. Being forced to think critically on my own led me to see several subtle errors in my game that had crept in by following the "raise-bet-bet-bet" mantra on this site.

Not surprisingly, I see these and other mistakes routinely in the hands of the students I coach. I've written up essays about them and charge for access to them, so I am conflicted about giving away this material. Partly as a "thanks 2+2", and partly as a promo for my site, I'm detailing below several common and key mistakes made by most TAG players. Here goes:

Mistake #1. Missing pure bluffs.

TAGs are taught to fold crap. That's the "tight" part of the tight-aggressive game, and generally it's very good advice.

Unfortunately, almost all players take this too far. Their first instinct is to look at their hand, and if it doesn't connect with the flop and they aren't the preflop raiser, they give up.

Always think about what your opponent holds. Does this flop hit him? How much would you have to risk to bluff at this pot? Is it worth it? You'll be amazed at how many profitable pure bluffs you are missing.

Here's an example: you are the BB holding 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP limps, SB limps, you check. Flop: Q83. SB checks, you bet!

Mistake #2. Protecting hands that don't need protection.

Ed Miller's book taught us that hand protection is critical in big pots. Sometimes it's good to raise a hand like middle pair just to increase your chances of winning a pot that has grown large. That's great.

The problem is, most of you play every pot as though it is a big pot. You don't understand how different the strategy is for small pots. You raise and force out players that you want to call. You bet when there are players behind you waiting to bluff.

In short, you are terrified to lose a pot.

Here's an example: you are the BB, this time holding Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP limps, SB limps, you check. Flop: Q83. SB checks, you check!


Mistake #3. Handling the initiative.

Basically, you think the initiative is something, and it isn't. This leads you to make two related mistakes. First, you bet way too much when you have the initiative. Second, you check to the guy with initiative way too much.

This combination causes you to have more trouble than necessary when out of position. You feel uncomfortable when you are the one doing the calling.

Aggression and position are advantages. They just aren't as great as you think. Donk bet more. Check behind more.

Here's an example: You are the BB holding T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Button raises, you call. Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. You bet!

Here's another one. You raise the button holding A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. BB calls. Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. BB checks. You check!

I could go on, but this is already pretty long. To sign off, I'd like to thanks 2+2 for years of forcing me to think more clearly about why I make the plays I make. I'm 4-tabling 30/60 and just had my best month ever. With this poker income, I can stay at home, spend time with my wife and watch my son grow up. Life is good, and I know this forum has helped me get there. Thanks.

good luck.
Eric

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

Eric,

Nice post. I have echoed these exact thoughts to some poker buddies of mine.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

hey eric,

interesting post...

i do have a question about your last hand...with A7 on a 558(2h) board why would you check behind? don't you think that you will pick up the pot often enough? i understand that most opponents will have only 4 outs here but why should i let them draw for free? especially since some/most will call a flop bet with too few outs in a pot that is too small...

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

Thank you Eric. I really appreciated it.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

ignore

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

I dont think my overall game will work if I play like that. I need to bet when I hold something since I bet so often when I dont.

But maybe my overall game needs work..

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

Eric,

You are a great poster. Thanks for your contributions. Please explain the flop check in the last hand.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

I think he means that checking gives your opponent the chance to bluff/semi-bluff the next street, or make a second best hand that will pay you off that normally would just fold the flop. Those 4 outs aren't quite what they seem either, since you have a pretty huge redraw against them. So while you may give up something the times that your opponent spikes his 4 outter and you don't hit your 12 outter on the river, you make more than when your opponent bluffs the turn, or makes a second best hand that he normally would have folded on the flop.

Of course, if your opponent will peel on a board like this with most of his hands, or is overaggressive with his bluff check/raises, it is better to just bet the flop.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

Nice post

Ive taken to checking behind on the flop(more often) and have been very pleased with the results.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

Why would you check A7 in position on a 558 flop heads-up?

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you check A7 in position on a 558 flop heads-up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eric's post consists of good ideas supported by poor examples.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you check A7 in position on a 558 flop heads-up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eric's post consists of good ideas supported by poor examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish I had more time to elaborate but I agree.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you check A7 in position on a 558 flop heads-up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eric's post consists of good ideas supported by poor examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the same thing. I think the Q2 hand is also a poorly constructed sample.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you check A7 in position on a 558 flop heads-up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eric's post consists of good ideas supported by poor examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the same thing. I think the Q2 hand is also a poorly constructed sample.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really see why the Q2 example is bad. I mean, I could see him coming up with a better and more obvious example, but is betting still the better option in eric's example?

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't really see why the Q2 example is bad. I mean, I could see him coming up with a better and more obvious example, but is betting still the better option in eric's example?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I think there's too much value to be had in betting and getting paid off by gutshots and middle pairs.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you check A7 in position on a 558 flop heads-up?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eric's post consists of good ideas supported by poor examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with this big time

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

Don't be ridiculous, guthots bet 90% of the time and middle pairs bet 99.6% of the time.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

great post, and I agree with the following logic:
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example: you are the BB holding 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP limps, SB limps, you check. Flop: Q83. SB checks, you bet!

[/ QUOTE ]
But I usually like to have an overcard to the flop when attempting this

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

I agree the examples could have been better, but imo they are good enough to get the idea across.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]


Yes, I think there's too much value to be had in betting and getting paid off by gutshots and middle pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but this requires the other people in the pot to:

1. Have these hands
2. Decide to call with them

And given that you are the BB, this is not terribly likely.

Eric is suggesting that inducing bluffs from aggressive opponents is more pure profit than trying to lure those same opponents into making calls with insufficient pot odds. For many opponents this is certainly true.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

"MP limps, SB limps, you check. Flop: Q83."

awful example. this flop is likely to touch a lot of hands mp would limp with. wait for K32 flops, etc.

"Donk bet more."

okay enough of you. now youre starting to give away some of my best plays.

Some thoughts on the examples
 

I guess I'm not surprised that there's some disagreement with the examples. After all, the whole point of this post is that most 2+2ers are missing out on these plays, so obviously lots of players, many of them solid winning players, don't play these hands this way.

Additionally, I wouldn't defend these plays as being always correct. I'm making some assumptions about how your opponents play here to suggest these plays are simply often correct. If these plays were correct against everyone, you'd have all found them by now.


I'll definitely have more to say on the ideas behind these hands, but for now I'm content to just hear what you all think. I just want you to remain open-minded, and think about a) what kinds of opponents would make this play correct, and b) how common those opponents are in your games.

-Eric

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

Regarding the examples: I think the last one is wrong 90%+, the Q2 one is wrong 60-80%, and the 72 one is wrong 20-40%.

I think the last example might be different if most tags arent c-betting 99.9% of their hands here anyways. Checking behind here sets off big warning bells for villian, enough to lower their turn bluff frequency to around correct levels against our hand.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

The first example I like, with the caveat that I won't make that play if MP is either really tight or really lose. As a bluff it only needs to work better than 1 in 3 to be profitable, and sb almost always has given up on this pot and offers a sort of protection in so far as MP will be less suspicious of a bluff.

Example 2 I really like. The pot is small and only 2 overcards to your hand can come. Most aggressive players will bet regardless of their cards into 2 blind players who have both checked, and then you have the option to checkraise the flop or turn. If you are pretty confident MP will bet the turn as well, I call the flop and checkraise the turn. If not just checkraise the flop. If you check, it gets checked around, and an A hits the turn the hand is still pretty easy to play IMO.

Example 3 I don't like. The pot is small, there is an ace on the board and 3 spades. A bluff will work here sometimes, but I dont think it will work enough to be profitable, as it fits your opponents range pretty well. I think there are better times to bluff in this manner.

Example 4 is only a solid play against opponents who I consider very good players. You want to check the flop sometimes against those players, and picking a time when you know you will at least see a river is the best time to do it, as it puts them in the position of needing to bluff at both expensive streets to pick up the pot. And even sometimes when they do that you will hit your hand and pop em. Against most opponents though I would just bet.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

nice post

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

there have been many 5 star posts recently. who said 2+2 was dead?

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

i'm glad to hear you get to spend more time with your family eric, thats great.. good for you!

i like your observations, and your thought processes. If everybody played the same way this game would never evolve and grow into what it is today.

I find myself doing just what you do very often, reading literature about poker, on here and in books, and wondering the different ways are to play it while still playing correctly. though, most of it is truely read/opponent dependant and your table. Now adays games are getting wayy looser, and on a typical friday or saturday night they get even crazier. This is one thing i am trying to work on very dilligently, beating the crazy games with 6-7 per flop for multiple bets while still making a profit.

Mistake #1. Missing pure bluffs.
 

all right, time for some follow up. Let's start with 72 on the Q83 board. Is it worth betting this into 2 players?

With all of these examples, I don't think my suggestion is right or wrong. I'm only claiming that it can be right against the right players, and more importantly, claiming that these players are pretty common.

ok, so how about this example? When would you want to bet? Well, it would help if you felt confident that the SB would bet his decent made hands. So far so good. Lots of people make mistake #2 so it's quite common that the SB checking indicates he's pretty weak and will fold to a bet.

What about that limper? It's hard to say. Mike correctly points out that the Q8 part of the flop isn't absolutely perfect, in that JT, T9 and J9 have gutshots. He suggests that K32 would be a better steal board. I agree, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to bet the Q83 board.

Remember, we're getting better than 3:1 to bet, and there's still the possibility of the occassional profitable follow through bluff on the turn as well. Hell, once in a while we'll turn a pair and have it hold up!

If the SB is tricky and aggressive, betting might not be great. If the limper is very loose, not just a little loose, it's possible the odds on a pure bluff won't be there. If your image is very loose and aggressive, maybe you want to check this flop and wait for the K62 board. Like all plays, you have to think about your opponents to decide on the situation, but the point is, this bluff can show a profit even on this less-than-perfect board, and most players would never make this bet.

good luck.
Eric

PS. I think that 2 opponents is the max you want to make this play against. Once it gets to 3, the parlay of all of them folding is no longer, generally, made up by the extra small bet in the pot. I'm making a lot of assumptions about the chances of players folding, making moves, etc, but my small sample size attempts to track these ideas have confirmed this.

Mistake #2. Protecting hands that don\'t need protecting.
 

Although several people said they thought the examples were poor, only Justin A had the courage to say why he felt betting Q2 on a Q83 board was better than checking, arguing that you get too much value from callers to check here. Kudos to justin for defending his argument (eventually). [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

This may be true against an exceptionally loose and passive opponent(s), but these players are not the norm. If they are common in your game, then ok, bet, but if you're like most people, your opponents are very aggressive.

Put it this way... imagine you have T9 for the flopped gutshot and you check... how often do you expect to get the free card you want?

If you answered "almost never" you are in the kind of game where you should check Q2 here. ggbman sums it up perfectly... any hand that might call you will surely bet if you check. More importantly, there are tons of hands that will bet if you check but fold if you bet.

Also important in this case is the size of the pot... it's only 3 small bets! Pots hardly get any smaller than this. Sure, you don't want to give this away for free, but you should certainly be willing to take some chances with a pretty strong hand. Even if the flop gets checked through, it's not the end of the world. The SB may bluff at the turn, a huge win for you! And while someone might catch a lucky card and draw out on you, they can just as easily, probably more easily, make a pair that ends up costing them 2 BB. Note that you would gladly allow someone to turn an open-ended straight draw in a pot this size, as they will make a mistake on the turn for sure!

In other words, checking on a slowplay in this tiny pot is not an outrageous idea. In light of that, you should not be at all concerned that the limper might check through the flop every once in a while. Checking and picking up that almost sure bluff from the 3rd player is very profitable.

good luck.
Eric

Mistake #3. Mishandling the initiative.
 

This one is more complicated and you kind of have to talk about your entire game to understand this one. In fact, there's so much going on here that I'm inclined to kind of gloss over a lot of ideas to keep this manageable. Here goes though:

First, I think we all know that the raiser is going to bet the flop. More importantly, I think that even fairly poor players have figured out that a guy betting the flop after raising preflop doesn't mean anything.

Second, I think that most players are too loose. They play too many hands after the flop. As you move up, these hands get played more aggressively.

Third, most players try to take advantage of the pfr's continuation bet by checking all hands to him intending to check-raise.


ok, given all these adjustments that players have made to pfr continuation bets, is it still correct to bet everything you raise? This question is especially aimed at the standard 2+2er that is raising 10,12,15% of his hands before the flop. Can it really be right to always bet everything under these circumstances?

The only conclussion I could come to was no. I decided that it must be better to take a lot of free cards when people check to you, a lot more than I saw most people taking.


By playing this way, lots of good things happen. I get more free cards when I need them. My losers cost less. I tend to have stronger hands when people play back at me.

There are other things. Most people don't know how to adjust to this. They don't understand that they can't continue to check everything to me if I'm going to check behind a lot.

The downside is that every once in a while, I check a flop I could have won by betting. I make up for this and then some though by sometimes winning pots I would have lost had I bet. Further, my bets can carry a little more weight than normal, so I might pick up a pot with a bluff that another player wouldn't have. Also, my checks can actually represent weakness, which is an interesting side effect. It allows me to sometimes check behind when I flop a strong hand and induce bluffs.

Which leads me to the A7s hand. If you always bet everything, then yes, suddenly checking behind might not be such a good idea. It probably look strong, and certainly looks suspicious. Since you are strong, that's bad. You should just bet and pray that he plays back at you, since you know it's pretty unlikely he has a real hand.

If you check behind more though, then you can check behind a hand like this and give your opponent a chance to bluff on the next street. He'll have to see you check and give up every once in a while first of course, but... ok. You already should be doing that.

The ideal opponent here is a fairly aggressive opponent, and teh ideal timing is right after you happen to have checked behind a couple of hands and folded the turn. If your opponent is incredibly loose, or a maniac, etc, then yes, you should bet the flop. Like all the examples, checking is not correct 100% of the time. But betting isn't correct 100% either, and I bet there are many on this forum who have never checked this flop.

good luck.
Eric

Re: Mistake #3. Mishandling the initiative.
 

I've been thinking some about the A7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hand. One thing to notice is that we will just about never fold a better hand with a bet, and that if opponent is trailing, he will have fewer outs than usual because any heart makes your hand. However, I think you may be overestimating the value of inducing a bluff in this spot. If you have not improved by the turn, then you are not much of a favorite against a random hand, and a decent opponent will be giving up with a lot of hopeless unmade hands. In other words, I don't think that there's terribly much overlay in the calldown that your check-behind sets up.

Re: Mistake #3. Mishandling the initiative.
 

[ QUOTE ]
One thing to notice is that we will just about never fold a better hand with a bet, and that if opponent is trailing, he will have fewer outs than usual because any heart makes your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely right. Note that both of these things suggest that a slowplay might be appropriate.

[ QUOTE ]
However, I think you may be overestimating the value of inducing a bluff in this spot. If you have not improved by the turn, then you are not much of a favorite against a random hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that right? That surprises me. Did you run a pokerstove simulation or are you just speculating that this is the case?

Either way, it occurs to me that this analysis is flawed. If we are behind on the flop, then checking is clearly best. You agree that he will never fold a hand that beats us, so when comparing our hand to his range to determine favorites on the turn, we should just look at our hand vs the hands he would have folded on the flop... I think you'll find that we're significant favorites over this range, and that is the one that is effected by our flop check.

Against the hands that already beat us on the flop, we also do well, since it costs us less to see a showdown, and after this flop, most of us are showdown bound.

[ QUOTE ]
...a decent opponent will be giving up with a lot of hopeless unmade hands. In other words, I don't think that there's terribly much overlay in the calldown that your check-behind sets up.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you always bet and then suddenly check, sure, a decent opponent may give up a lot. Still, 1) lots of players are not decent, and bluff way to much, and 2) I recommend this play in the context of an overall strategy involving frequently checking behind with nothing.

If you are known to often check (but not always of course) check behind when you a miss and give up, then a decent opponent may well bluff much more after you check behind a very good flop for your hand like this.


Thanks for the interesting discussion Nate.

-Eric

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

Biggest leaks:

When to/not make continuation bets in HU or 3 way pots vs decent opposition.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Biggest leaks:

When to/not make continuation bets in HU or 3 way pots vs decent opposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you care to expand on this?

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Biggest leaks:

When to/not make continuation bets in HU or 3 way pots vs decent opposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Schneids,

You got it. I think this is just a different way of phrasing my "mistake #3". Most people solve your problem by simply always betting. That's a mishandling of the initiative. They need to check more across the board, weak, strong, sometimes in between.

This is a huge topic, my one example is just the tip of the iceberg. Thinking about it now, I jumped the gun a bit with my example... you really should start by talking about what weak hands to check behind. Then you move on to talk about how people will tend to adjust to that, and how you should take advantage of those adjustments by checking strong hands or hands like the one in the example...

Anyways, yeah. I agree. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

good luck.
Eric

PS. extra strategy point: the reason to single out these short-handed, HU and 3-way pots is that these are small pot sizes, which involve significant strategy changes from your normal bet-bet-bet, win-at-all-costs big pot game.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

I am only posting this sentence to add this thread to my favorites

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

1. whenever i start taking random stabs at pots all i notice is my bankroll dwindling.

2. generally agree with this. opponent dependant tho.

3. online i cant see any reason to check hu. you dont see the opponents often enough. the good ones are 8tabling and not paying atttention anyway.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

Eric,

Very good post. I have had trouble recently with when to continuation bet, donk bet, etc. in 2 and 3 way pots. I thought your examples were very good, not because I agree with the play as 100% correct/100% of the time, but because it forced me to think about WHY the play has value in certain situations and what those situations would be.

Thanks for your insight.

TD

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
"MP limps, SB limps, you check. Flop: Q83."

awful example. this flop is likely to touch a lot of hands mp would limp with. wait for K32 flops, etc.

"Donk bet more."

okay enough of you. now youre starting to give away some of my best plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike I. and elindauer, I owe 1BB to each of you.


Party Poker Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.00 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: 2.00 BB.

Re: Carpal Tunnel post: common leaks in the 2+2 game (long)
 

OP,

Really nice post. I think a lot of this can be applied to no limit as well as fixed limit. Thank you.