Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

Venue: Foxwoods WPT Poker Room
Game: 1-2 nlhe

On the river, in a HU pot, Hero moves all in with JTc on a [JhAhX][2h][4h] after heavy betting on flop and turn. Villain, after tanking for minutes (at a live tbl mind you) turns up 35h in front of his stack and across the line on the table and says angrily "I had you til the [censored] river". A middle aged showdown muppet on the other end of the table immediately says "You have a straight flush". Villain embarassingly starts putting his stacks of $ into the pot as fast as possible saying, I never said fold. Hero becomes furious, claiming nobody turns their cards up over the line at the table and says anything like "I had you til the [censored] river" when they're are going to be calling. Villain claims, he never said the word "fold". After 2 seperate floor managers talk it over and a huge scene in the Foxwoods poker room they decide.......

You're the floor, what's your decision? (Results to come after some discussion)

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

Cards speak... Straight flush wins the pot

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

this is not a made up scenario btw, this actually happened, if you read this, post a response

Re: Be the floor, make the call
 

Did not say 'Fold'
Did not muck cards (at least by my definition)
See numerous other threads on 'if I expose my hand HU on the river is it dead?' re if your club allows that.

Last time I checked, a straight flush beats a pair of Jacks.

And MrLoudmouth gets a sledgehammer to the huevos.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

The guy threw his cards over the line. Doesn't that equal a fold?

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

This is not a case where "cards speak" is the key matter, because the hand is not at showdown. Villain had to call a bet to get to showdown. Regardless of what Villain's cards say, the question is whether his action of placing the cards in the center and declaring "I had you til the river" constituted a fold.

I think it's hard to interpret that action as other than a fold. Further, if it wasn't a fold, Villain and "Middle aged showdown muppet" have violated One Player to a Hand.

As such, I would award the pot to Hero. MASM gets a warning not to play others' hands. Villain presumably learns his lesson on his own.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a case where "cards speak" is the key matter, because the hand is not at showdown. Villain had to call a bet to get to showdown. Regardless of what Villain's cards say, the question is whether his action of placing the cards in the center and declaring "I had you til the river" constituted a fold.



[/ QUOTE ]

ding ding ding

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Further, if it wasn't a fold, Villain and "Middle aged showdown muppet" have violated One Player to a Hand.



[/ QUOTE ]

How did Villain violate that rule? Did he solicit advice?

If there is a bet on the river to you, and I offer unsolicited advice that "you should call", I have violated the rule. Not you. Your hand is not dead.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

Nit alert... there is no 200NL at Foxwoods. I assume OP means the 1/2 (60-300 buy-in) game since the 2/5 is 300MIN.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

Agreed, "cards speak" doesn't apply because villain still has to call a bet. However, how can the pot be awarded to hero here? Once he realised he had the best hands and made the call its his pot. Middle-aged women violated the one person to a hand rule, but what can be done besides warning her?

Villain never said fold. Can he be penalized for exposing his hand while heads up when all betting is finished?

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

if it happened exactly as the op described it, villain clearly folded. the action of tossing his cards forward without calling the bet is a fold.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not a case where "cards speak" is the key matter, because the hand is not at showdown. Villain had to call a bet to get to showdown. Regardless of what Villain's cards say, the question is whether his action of placing the cards in the center and declaring "I had you til the river" constituted a fold.



[/ QUOTE ]

ding ding ding

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, cards don't speak until he makes the call.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

just tell us what happened dammit

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

Close Call.

Ok, first of all, The Showdown Muppet gets repeatedly kicked in the nuts. I think we can all agree on that.

Now as to the ruling -- this is very fact specific. Were the cards thrown towards the muck? How far before the muck? Did the dealer think he mucked his hand?

If so, since he didn't bet, the hand was mucked. Even though a mucked hand can be retreived in the interest of justice, I don't think that applies in this case. (If he had made the bet, then mucked face up, I'd go the other way).

Although he didn't say 'fold' Depending on the exact words, the dealer may say he interpreted the combination of actions and words as a fold.

Overall -- I want to say that the cards were mucked, and if the Dealer gives me any indication that this happened before the muppet spoke up, I'd rule accordingly. Likewise, if I can reach that interpretation on my own, I do so.

However, I don't think that merely turning your cards face up kills the hand. It's unfortunate that the showdown muppet spoke, however this happens. Without something specific, I think it's a live hand and Villian called timely, and thus wins.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

"Villain, after tanking for minutes (at a live tbl mind you) turns up 35h in front of his stack and across the line on the table"

I don't see where OP described tossing his cards forward. Regardless, can't the call be made as long as villian never clearly folded? Is the floor going to rule that his statement about "had you to the river" constitutes a fold?

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

The dealer did not even make an attempt to make a ruling, she immediately called for the floor, who eventually called over a higher level of floor management.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

Sorry guys, I've seen this exact same scenario happen before. If the floor is competent then the hand is ruled live provided the villain calls or raises and the loudmouth is given a time out/table change/warning.

this of course assumes the hand is heads up, if its multiway then the ruling will be different.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The dealer did not even make an attempt to make a ruling, she immediately called for the floor, who eventually called over a higher level of floor management.

[/ QUOTE ]

Smart dealer - didn't know and got help.

And my ruling would be villain never expressly folded, and still had the option to call. Bigmouth is a freaking idiot.
If the cards weren't quite where I think they are, I could change my mind.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

Nothing in your narrative indicates that the dealer grabbed at the cards or asked the player if he folded. Unless the room has a stated policy as to the use of the line (e.g. chips over the line are in-play and hands tossed over the line are mucked), the hand is live and the straight flush holds up.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Villain, after tanking for minutes (at a live tbl mind you) turns up 35h in front of his stack and across the line on the table"

I don't see where OP described tossing his cards forward. Regardless, can't the call be made as long as villian never clearly folded? Is the floor going to rule that his statement about "had you to the river" constitutes a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine looking down at a full ring table from above. Within the green felt there is a ring which separates the middle of the table with the area the players divide up depending on their seat pos (and behind each cupholder at Foxwoods anyways) to stack their chips and keep their cards. Villain had turned his hand face up over the line where cards in play are kept (in front of the players) and into the area where the pot and muck are.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

Oh no, cards speak. SF wins. The player who spoke up should shut up, but that's life.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

Right -- If I'm the floor,I ask the dealer whether the cards were mucked. If the dealer can't say he/she thought cards were mucked, I regretfully rule that they were live (unless I can determine otherwise myself from the position of the cards on the table).

Let's change the facts a little -- Villian turns the cards face up and says "I guess you have me." Before anyone says anything or the dealer moves the chips, he says -- "Wait, I have a straight flush, I call" Under these facts, I think its a live hand. The fact that a Jerk spoke up doesn't change this.

So, we need to determine whether the actions constitute a muck, and the dealer is the best person to do this.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Villain, after tanking for minutes (at a live tbl mind you) turns up 35h in front of his stack and across the line on the table"

I don't see where OP described tossing his cards forward. Regardless, can't the call be made as long as villian never clearly folded? Is the floor going to rule that his statement about "had you to the river" constitutes a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine looking down at a full ring table from above. Within the green felt there is a ring which separates the middle of the table with the area the players divide up depending on their seat pos (and behind each cupholder at Foxwoods anyways) to stack their chips and keep their cards. Villain had turned his hand face up over the line where cards in play are kept (in front of the players) and into the area where the pot and muck are.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ring is not magical. Crossing the line does not determine a bet, raise or fold. The ring is there to help determine the action, but it is not the exclusive factor. Sorry you lost, that would put me on tilt if I were you but I would also know that the floor ruled correctly.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Villain, after tanking for minutes (at a live tbl mind you) turns up 35h in front of his stack and across the line on the table"

I don't see where OP described tossing his cards forward. Regardless, can't the call be made as long as villian never clearly folded? Is the floor going to rule that his statement about "had you to the river" constitutes a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine looking down at a full ring table from above. Within the green felt there is a ring which separates the middle of the table with the area the players divide up depending on their seat pos (and behind each cupholder at Foxwoods anyways) to stack their chips and keep their cards. Villain had turned his hand face up over the line where cards in play are kept (in front of the players) and into the area where the pot and muck are.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ring is not magical. Crossing the line does not determine a bet, raise or fold. The ring is there to help determine the action, but it is not the exclusive factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

merely describing the scenario better for readers, not giving my input

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
<u>turns up</u> 35h <u>in front of his stack</u> and <u>across the line on the table</u>

[/ QUOTE ]

This really doesn't seem to be 'tossed his cards face up toward the muck'

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Right -- If I'm the floor,I ask the dealer whether the cards were mucked. If the dealer can't say he/she thought cards were mucked, I regretfully rule that they were live (unless I can determine otherwise myself from the position of the cards on the table).

[/ QUOTE ]

once the muppet had opened his mouth about the SF, villain pulled his hand back behind his chips, btw

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Villain, after tanking for minutes (at a live tbl mind you) turns up 35h in front of his stack and across the line on the table"

I don't see where OP described tossing his cards forward. Regardless, can't the call be made as long as villian never clearly folded? Is the floor going to rule that his statement about "had you to the river" constitutes a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Imagine looking down at a full ring table from above. Within the green felt there is a ring which separates the middle of the table with the area the players divide up depending on their seat pos (and behind each cupholder at Foxwoods anyways) to stack their chips and keep their cards. Villain had turned his hand face up over the line where cards in play are kept (in front of the players) and into the area where the pot and muck are.

[/ QUOTE ]

Understood, and pretty standard at most newer tables (fwiw, i've played at FW's before)

I still say the hand is live and villain wins. Unfortunately, the lady spoke up and hero got screwed. TT pretty much confirmed this is the correct ruling.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<u>turns up</u> 35h <u>in front of his stack</u> and <u>across the line on the table</u>

[/ QUOTE ]

This really doesn't seem to be 'tossed his cards face up toward the muck'

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? Villain was in seat 2 and extremely close to the muck. Are you kidding?

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Right -- If I'm the floor,I ask the dealer whether the cards were mucked. If the dealer can't say he/she thought cards were mucked, I regretfully rule that they were live (unless I can determine otherwise myself from the position of the cards on the table).

[/ QUOTE ]

once the muppet had opened his mouth about the SF, villain pulled his hand back behind his chips, btw

[/ QUOTE ]

that doesnt make it a string bet, this is heads up.

see this thread or Roberts Rules of Poker for more details.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero becomes furious, claiming nobody turns their cards up over the line at the table and says anything like "I had you til the [censored] river" when they're are going to be calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You took your fury out on the wrong person. Unless you really want to just win a pot on a technicality. The guy to be pissed at is the showdown mope.

It sucks that it happened, but let it go. I'd be more concerned with making sure the idiot knows to shut his yap when not in a hand.

b

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero becomes furious, claiming nobody turns their cards up over the line at the table and says anything like "I had you til the [censored] river" when they're are going to be calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You took your fury out on the wrong person. Unless you really want to just win a pot on a technicality. The guy to be pissed at is the showdown mope.

It sucks that it happened, but let it go. I'd be more concerned with making sure the idiot knows to shut his yap when not in a hand.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering the muppet with the mouth in this case was barely spoken to and not punished in any form. Hero lost real $. Villain would not have won that $ if not for the muppets' comment. How do you implement any justice here?

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

Wow. Great situation. Close call.

I would call it a muck. And award the pot to hero. The villain was clearly getting rid of his low flush turned sour.

I wish dealers at FW would all grab mucked river cards and bury them quickly. Some do. Most don't.

I would give muppet a time out/table change/stern warning and if they ever did it again a ban whose length would be dependant on how frequently they played (i.e. if they came once a week I'd ban them a month or two).

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<u>turns up</u> 35h <u>in front of his stack</u> and <u>across the line on the table</u>

[/ QUOTE ]

This really doesn't seem to be 'tossed his cards face up toward the muck'

[/ QUOTE ]

How so? Villain was in seat 2 and extremely close to the muck. Are you kidding?

[/ QUOTE ]

You said "turns up", not "tosses toward the muck". From your description, they were in front of him, not in front of Seat 1 or the Dealer.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

Are you sure you have the cards right? Villain's hand before the river couldn't beat anything.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero becomes furious, claiming nobody turns their cards up over the line at the table and says anything like "I had you til the [censored] river" when they're are going to be calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You took your fury out on the wrong person. Unless you really want to just win a pot on a technicality. The guy to be pissed at is the showdown mope.

It sucks that it happened, but let it go. I'd be more concerned with making sure the idiot knows to shut his yap when not in a hand.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering the muppet with the mouth in this case was barely spoken to and not punished in any form. Hero lost real $. Villain would not have won that $ if not for the muppets' comment. How do you implement any justice here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't implement justice, the floor does. Until you start working for Foxwoods its not your yob mang! Complain to the floor next time, explain how his actions cost you significant amounts of dolla bills. He will give the guy a time out or something but your not getting your money back.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you sure you have the cards right? Villain's hand before the river couldn't beat anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

villain had a flush on turn, what?

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hero becomes furious, claiming nobody turns their cards up over the line at the table and says anything like "I had you til the [censored] river" when they're are going to be calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You took your fury out on the wrong person. Unless you really want to just win a pot on a technicality. The guy to be pissed at is the showdown mope.

It sucks that it happened, but let it go. I'd be more concerned with making sure the idiot knows to shut his yap when not in a hand.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering the muppet with the mouth in this case was barely spoken to and not punished in any form. Hero lost real $. Villain would not have won that $ if not for the muppets' comment. How do you implement any justice here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't implement justice, the floor does. Until you start working for Foxwoods its not your yob mang! Complain to the floor next time, explain how his actions cost you significant amounts of dolla bills. He will give the guy a time out or something but your not getting your money back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that ok with you if that was the ruling? What is your personal opinion, as both Hero and Villain?

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Crossing the line does not determine a bet, raise or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Room depending.

My room, it's it's ruled a bet.

Betting lines suck.

As far as it being considered a fold? Usually it isn't, but it's much more subjective.

b

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do you implement any justice here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait for muppet in parking lot.
Kidnap muppet.
Force muppet to withdraw size of pot from ATM and give it to you.
Drag muppet to tattoo parlor and have "One player to a hand" inked in an ornate tramp stamp.
Drop muppet off at biker bar.
Drive back to cardroom and beat Villain out of the all his money.

Re: Straight flush mucked at 200nl Foxwoods?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Crossing the line does not determine a bet, raise or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Room depending.

My room, it's it's ruled a bet.

Betting lines suck.

As far as it being considered a fold? Usually it isn't, but it's much more subjective.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Bernie - even in your room the line is a primary measure but not an absolute measure. They will allow other factors to weigh a decision, consider it like the muck - everyone thinks its magical but in reality cards can be fished out if its in the best interest of the game and the cards can be determined.