Black People
 

During this All Star weekend, I noticed that about 40% of the customers were black. Normally its about 15%. But in spite of the fact that the crowds were a lot younger and blacker than usual, I never detected a hint of prejudice. No incidents, or even subtle actions or aloofness. I understand that it is easier to be polite when you are a millionaire, but I'm old enough to remember when there was always at least some signs of discomfort in situations like these.

So does that mean that this country has become basically colorblind? Possibly. But I have another theory. I believe that the acceptance of black people has been accelerated by the fact that white people's prejudice are now focused on Middle Easterners (because of terrorism) and Hispanics (because of illegal aliens). Add that to the fact that whites have noticed how many black people have died, along with white people, both at the World Trade Center, and fighting in Iraq, and you have a situation where mild bigots look elsewhere. If so this is one small silver lining regarding the otherwise unpleasant events of the last few years. Agree or disagree?

Re: Black People
 

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Add that to the fact that whites have noticed how many black people have died, along with white people, both at the World Trade Center, and fighting in Iraq, and you have a situation where mild bigots look elsewhere

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I think this is a crock of s***. Might seem like a good reason for not being racist, but it absolutely does not have any effect on any racist thoughts people might have.

Re: Black People
 

People don't have a finite amount of prejudice. It doesn't run out and they don't have to reallocate it. That's a silly idea.

Re: Black People
 

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People don't have a finite amount of prejudice. It doesn't run out and they don't have to reallocate it. That's a silly idea.

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I agree with this guy + the fact just because <font color="red"> YOU </font> didnt seen anything, doesnt mean nothing happened.

Re: Black People
 

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People don't have a finite amount of prejudice. It doesn't run out and they don't have to reallocate it. That's a silly idea.

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I agree with this guy + the fact just because <font color="red"> YOU </font> didnt seen anything, doesnt mean nothing happened.

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While I feel that the overall trend of 'white America' is a greater acceptance of 'black people' in more areas of society, I think we are still really far from some utopian situation where the walls of prejudice between blacks and whites are torn down.

This also goes for all other 'races.' Anti-Arab and -Mexican feelings have received a lot of attention recently, but they have always been there and were probably worse in the past.

I would imagine that if Sklansky is black, he would see acts of prejudice much more frequently than he does now.

Re: Black People
 

I agree that with the current political/social stuff, black people are definitely closer to the nebulous "Us" than "Them" than they ever have been, and that this is a good thing.

Meaning that if you take a random white Middle American, he will feel much more connected with a black guy than with an Arab or Mexican. This is only good because he probably interacts with black people a lot more than with the others.

Re: Black People
 

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I think this is a crock of s***. Might seem like a good reason for not being racist, but it absolutely does not have any effect on any racist thoughts people might have

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Normally I wouldn't respond to a comment like this, but the only thing that is virtually absolute in this thread is that you are wrong. An extreme statement like this can't be true.

Re: Black People
 

David, shouldn't it be obvious that the percentage of blacks in a room is (at least somewhat) inversely related to number of incidents that would take place.

Re: Black People
 

The younger the person, the less race is even an issue. The biggest proof of this is how comfortably high school students interact with, and date, people of other races. In the school my children went to, you get baffled looks if you ask whether interracial dating is an issue. It is considered a bizarre question.

However, Sklansky's comment about millionaires is worth considering. Differences are often about class as much as about race. As more blacks reach the middle class, "black people" are much less of a monolith, polticially or any other way. (Has anyone noticed how many blacks are running for high office, in both major parties?) After all, a black dentist or judge probably has at least as much in common with the upper-class white people who live on his block than he does with people, of whatever race, in the local "projects".

By the way, my extended family is mutilracial (black (Carribean)/white/hispanic/Native American) because of adoptions. There are 3 biracial children and one multiracial. Are they to identify only with those of similar skin color? Sometimes the whole racial thing is just silly. In poker, and in life, ultimately we are all individaul humans, all worthy of the same respect.

Re: Black People
 

Hi David,

While I do not doubt what you observed, I doubt your explanation for why. Psychologists have identified at least two new phenomon that can explain what you witnessed.

1. Covert Racism. As being outwardly racist has become more and more stigmatized, cover racism has developed. In covert racism, as the name suggests, people do not overtly express their racism. There they do so more covertly, often in simple ways which cannot be considered criminal (e.g. not holding the door for a person of another race).

2. Reverse racism. I know this isn't the exact term for it (I can't remember the psychological name for it) but it is representative of the phenomenon. In reverse racism, a person is so afraid of being labeled a racist, that he or she goes above and beyond being helpful in the way he or she would to a person of his or her own race. For example, a white female shop owner might be extra-considerate to an african american customer to "prove" that she isn't racist.

While both of these phenomenon seem to be reducing the number of racially motivated crimes (acts of discrimination) in the United States, they are not reducing racial stereotyping (negative thoughts about a particular race) or racial prejudice (negative feelings about a particular race).

R. Sherman
Ph. D. Student Personality/Social Psychology

Re: Black People
 

Just to be clear, I am a white middle-aged male. I am also one of those "colorblind" people. I find that it frees me up for a more important task, spotting idiots.

As for your theory, I have to disagree. The Middle Easterners (or Muslims) that are, or support, terrorists are by far a minority. Same applies to Hispanics and illegal aliens. As a matter of fact, I don't think you can even compare an illegal alien to a person who is bent on mass murder.

My own theory is that it is a generational phasing. Elder people will still hold onto their views while younger people will progress society and eventually we won't even be discussing things like race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc.

Look at the Super Bowl as an example. There was a minor story and mention that it was the first time two black coaches met in the Super Bowl. This follows many firsts regarding blacks and others like the first black baseball player, the first black sports team manager, etc. Pretty soon there will be a first female US President. When all the firsts are done we will stop talking about it and it will no longer be an issue. It will take time and generations.

Re: Black People
 

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People don't have a finite amount of prejudice. It doesn't run out and they don't have to reallocate it. That's a silly idea.

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collectively we do. when the racists die they are not replaced 100%.

Re: Black People
 

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People don't have a finite amount of prejudice. It doesn't run out and they don't have to reallocate it. That's a silly idea.

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collectively we do. when the racists die they are not replaced 100%.

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Prejudice is unmeasurable and not conserved. What I mean is that for someone to have more prejudice against blacks, they don't need to have less prejudice against something else to compensate. If they have less prejudice against blacks than they did before, it doesn't need to have gone somewhere else.

Re: Black People
 

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I believe that the acceptance of black people has been accelerated by the fact that white people's prejudice are now focused on Middle Easterners (because of terrorism) and Hispanics (because of illegal aliens).

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I guess I'll buck the trend so far and say that I think there's something to this. People who are inclined to think along racial lines (i.e. racists) usually have a sort of caste system in their heads. And yes, lately Muslims and hispanics have been working their way down the ladder in the eyes of the ignorant.

Another poster said that racism isn't zero-sum, which is true, strictly speaking. However, nor are racist attitudes towards one group completely independent from attitudes towards other groups.

Somewhere right now in America, some fool is saying to his friends: "Say what you want about the blacks, but at least they're not blowing up buildings."

Somewhere right now, there's a racist white guy commiserating with a racist black guy on the bar stool next to him about those damn hispanics that are taking everybody's jobs.

Writ large, these attitudes and interactions have an effect, and it's an effect that is probably beneficial to black Americans at the moment. To keep with the caste system metaphor, there's only ever room for one Untouchable class at a time. (Except in Germany.)

Re: Black People
 

The way I see it, racism (or at least prejudice) is a natural human trait. If you are not from my tribe I'm suspicious of you. It's a defense mechanism. The fact that David even noticed the percentage of Blacks in town, tells you something. It was obviously an issue with him.

If you are around people you are comfortable with, then race isn't a real big issue. But when they are strangers it is. Las Vegas is a tourist town. People expect to see a lot of different people there. People expect to see a lot of races in the city of Chicago too. But if there is a Black picnic in a leafy white suburban park, the cops will be called. The same people that work with, and are even friends with plenty of black people will freak out when Black strangers are in their neighborhood.

For all you folks that claim that you are not racist, do a little thought experiment. Pretend you just got on the el and you are the only white person on the train, everyone is Black and you don't know them. How would you feel? Would you feel different if they were all Arab or Mexican? Can you honestly say you wouldn't feel more comfortable on a traincar full of strangers your own race?

So, back to the OP. As Blacks as a community gained more rights and affluence they were seen more on TV, able to travel more and visit places like Las Vegas. White America become more used to seeing them in places like Las Vegas. That's all what happened. Human Beings are perfectly capable of disliking more than one group of people.

Re: Black People
 

I think the difference between this idea and the way I feel is that I feel we won't understand the true effects of these current hatreds for several years. Most prejudices are ones your family teaches you as you're being raised. These random hatreds that are being developed won't be taught to future generations until they are born. Maybe we should do everything in our power to prevent it?

Re: Black People
 

"The fact that David even noticed the percentage of Blacks in town, tells you something. It was obviously an issue with him."

This forum does not allow stupid statements. I would also notice if 40% percent of the Bellagio was redheads. And I'm quite sure that all the black regulars at the Bellagio noticed the same thing I did.

Re: Black People
 

Personally I have much more automatic prejudices against Mexicans. On the other hand I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] black people.

Re: Black People
 

To find out how colorblind you really are imagine the following scenario:

You have a chance to move all black people back to Africa, let's say to Liberia or any other african country of your choice. Everyone of them would have instant amnesia and forget that they have ever been to the US and nobody would ever find out that you did it. Would you do it?

I'd say if you make a poll amongst white americans, the outcome would be a landslide. It wouldn't even be close.

Re: Black People
 

We're only "colorblind" when we need to be, which is anytime you're own "personal" image is out in the open for "public" display. It's very "PC" to be tolerant, even accepting, but behind closed doors and in the comfort of friends true feelings will come out.

Also, we need to take into consideration the world of sports is very racially diverse, even biased in support of "black people". So it's not much of a suprise that you'll see a higher level of tolerance in sports settings. Even the most avid white sports fan must be at least accepting fof "black people" else he'll find himself without a team to root for in some cases.

What many people forget is that our country has always been racially diverse and as such racially charged. Slavery ended not even 200 years ago and our country isn't even 300 years old. As a culture we are still very infantile and each new thing is something that must be incorporated into the American psyche. First it was no more slaves and free "black folk"..then it was women could vote..then "blacks" could vote..then it was terrorism and coming to grips with things the rest of the world has endured for centuries. All this while, ever since the first immigrant set foot on this land, there has been a mix of races - white - black - yellow - red. And within these we've had difference groups bringing their own prejudices against each other..Germans against the Irish against the French, etc. It will be many, many generations until we can even begin to say we are beginning to become "colorblind" as a society...woman still trail men in many areas they shouldn't and yet men and women have been around together ever since we first showed up on this rock.

Re: Black People
 

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During this All Star weekend, I noticed that about 40% of the customers were black. Normally its about 15%. But in spite of the fact that the crowds were a lot younger and blacker than usual, I never detected a hint of prejudice. No incidents, or even subtle actions or aloofness. I understand that it is easier to be polite when you are a millionaire, but I'm old enough to remember when there was always at least some signs of discomfort in situations like these.

So does that mean that this country has become basically colorblind? Possibly. But I have another theory. I believe that the acceptance of black people has been accelerated by the fact that white people's prejudice are now focused on Middle Easterners (because of terrorism) and Hispanics (because of illegal aliens). Add that to the fact that whites have noticed how many black people have died, along with white people, both at the World Trade Center, and fighting in Iraq, and you have a situation where mild bigots look elsewhere. If so this is one small silver lining regarding the otherwise unpleasant events of the last few years. Agree or disagree?

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David,
If you want to see racism still kicking in America go to a prison. Incarceration rates of blacks are 10-20x higher than whites and 3-5x higher than latinos (numbers from memory). They also get longer/harsher sentences when similar crimes/backgrounds are taken into account.

Re: Black People
 

Incarceration rates among blacks are 10-20X higher than whites because they commit 10-20X more crime than whites.

If O.J. was white and he killed a black man and woman, do you really think he would have gotten away with the crime he so obviously committed?

Also, one can only imagine the riots that would have occurred in the above scenario. It would have made the Rodney King riots look tame by comparison.

Your comment that blacks get longer/harsher sentences for the same crime is absolute hogwash.

I suppose that affirmative action programs aren't racist either.

Unfortunately, all races are biased against each other and the same could be said about religion.

It boils down to people not accepting differences from one another.

Re: Black People
 

Here in the UK we can see a similar phenomenon with increased prejudice towards Muslims and a continuing decline in anti Black racism.

I don't think it is just terrorism but is related to the level of mixing and integration. Here we have very high intermarriage rates and high levels of social mixing with blacks but greater levels of ghettoisation for those from Pakistan. People's experience of meeting and working with Black people has undermined some of the previous prejudices. From a distance I suspect the growing Black middle class will have had a similar effect in the US. Familiarity has to some extent overcome prejudice.

I agree that prejudice is not finite but I suspect that people's fear is finite otherwise we would also spend our time in a blind panic. Recently the Muslim has seemed scarier than the black and this fear feeds the prejudice. The Black man now seems less scary than the Muslim woman in a Burkha.

Re: Black People
 

A couple of key points you are missing that probably relate to your observation...

1) In pro basketball, the rich black athletes know that their riches come in large part from whites who enjoy watching them. Whites also know that the quality and entertainment value of the game depends largely on blacks. So it's no wonder each race has some respect and appreciation for the other going in.

2) Over 95% of the people you saw were visitors to the area, so it's neutral turf to everyone. Race tensions tend to be strongest when both sides claim ownership of the same turf.

And I think you underestimate the effect of them all being millionaires. Money is obviously much more important to such people than to random members of the general population. And it doesn't take a superhuman IQ to figure out that money is maximized when your market is as large as possible, ie. includes all races.

I think the post vs. pre 9-11 environment accounts for less than 2% of the explanation.

Re: Black People
 

I am going to ramble off a few random things I am to tired to actually think about.

Racism is a symptom of a different disease. This is the intrinsic nature of people to distrust and dislike people who are different from them selves. And while that may make you feel guilty. It also seems to be quite helpful in years past when you would be competing for limited resources. This delves into a lot of evolutionary theory I am to lazy to type, and you are to lazy to read. But you get the idea. Disliking people who are different is natural and at one point benificial.

Now lets move onto whether racism against blacks has decreased. The answer is yes and no. Hate as of late has changed. It is less dependent on your skin color and has more to do with your socio-economic class. It is no longer people who are of a different race than us who are hated, but those who do not lead a similar lifestyle. A muslim in middle managment at a wal-mart who drives their 2 kids to soccer practice in a SUV are not going to be met with the racism that someone who carries around their prayer rug and talks with a thick accent. It is less their skin color that people hate but how different the person's values are from their own.

Re: Black People
 

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1) In pro basketball, the rich black athletes know that their riches come in large part from whites who enjoy watching them. Whites also know that the quality and entertainment value of the game depends largely on blacks. So it's no wonder each race has some respect and appreciation for the other going in.

2) Over 95% of the people you saw were visitors to the area, so it's neutral turf to everyone. Race tensions tend to be strongest when both sides claim ownership of the same turf.

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Yes, David, what exactly are you referring to when you 'say customers at all-star weekend'? Do you mean attendees at the actual game and festivities? I'm not sure how much bearing it has on your point, but all-star weekend and the demographic of people that attend, race aside, is not exactly a 'real' environment in which to make accurate observations. This still stands even when factoring your comparison to festivities of the past.

Re: Black People
 

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David, what exactly are you referring to when you 'say customers at all-star weekend'?

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Yeah, I thought the exact same thing. Customers of what? And why are they all millionaires? I'm confused.

Re: Black People
 

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Yeah, I thought the exact same thing. Customers of what? And why are they all millionaires? I'm confused.

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I think he's referring to the people who attended the game in Las Vegas. They are probably mostly millionaires because the prices of those tickets were absurd. Some seats were selling for over $20,000 a pop.

Re: Black People
 

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"The fact that David even noticed the percentage of Blacks in town, tells you something. It was obviously an issue with him."

This forum does not allow stupid statements. I would also notice if 40% percent of the Bellagio was redheads. And I'm quite sure that all the black regulars at the Bellagio noticed the same thing I did.

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That's exactly my point. Human beings, make distinctions based on race, ethnicity, subculture etc. Black people make the same distinctions. If it wasn't an issue, why did you bring it up?

Re: Black People
 

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I think he's referring to the people who attended the game in Las Vegas. They are probably mostly millionaires because the prices of those tickets were absurd. Some seats were selling for over $20,000 a pop.

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Maybe on the black market they were!

Completely kidding. Do we have any proof that any tix were listed for $20k/each? Super Bowl tickets don't even go that high.


As for the topic of discussion, I don't agree with the OP (yes, even Sklansky gets referred to as "the OP"). I think people on the whole are less likely to expose thier beliefs in public. Maybe we are aiming to become a more accomodating people, but the beliefs are still within us.

Shocking
 

Wow. I am quite surprised at the responses in this forum. Lots of obviously racist remarks; but beyond that, the quality of responses can be characterized as less than thoughtful.

Here are some facts based on, oh I dunno, scientific evidence:

1) Racism is real in America.

2) The number of criminal acts of discrimination (behaving in a way towards a person of another race that is unfair or harmful, simply because of his or her race) has been gradually decreasing.

3) One reason for this decrease is due to an increased stigmatization against racists.

4) The increased stigmatization against racists has resulted in an increase in a) covert racist (see my earlier post) and b) reverse racism (see my earlier post).

5) Because of this trend towards covert racism and reverse racism, the number of acts of discrimination has been reduced; However, this has not reduced the level of racial prejudice and racial stereotyping in this country (see my earlier post).

6) Someone mentioned that it is human instinct to be racist. That is yet to be identified, however, science has shown that it is human instinct to have an increased liking for those similar to you. Which isn't very different.

7) David's hypothesis isn't totally wrong either. Science has also shown that people tend to join together when faced with a common enemy. However, I just don't think his hypothesis explains as much of the variance (in decreased discrimination) as do my earlier points.

For a forum which prides itself on facts (though often mathematically derived), this particular post has an absolute lack of factual evidence presented. I found it shocking.

R. Sherman
Ph. D. Student Personality/Social Psychology

Re: Black People
 

sklansky,
the black comedians have been saying this since 2002 and they are grateful

Re: Black People
 

I agree, im part sand negro and people look at me funny alot, and this isnt a joke, i really am and they really do.

Re: Black People
 

Basically disagree. Intolerance begets intolerance. If the news and politicians are highlighting illegal immigration and terrorism, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're less prjudiced against blacks, just that it's not a hot-button issue just now.

Historically, white Americans have feared the "other." Black Americans are less "other" these days as they have a presence in entertainment, sports and even corporate America that they did not have in the past. I think white Americans tolerate their increased presence among them because they have to, not because they have deflected their prejudices onto other groups.

Re: Black People
 

David, first let me state that you are my personal hero.

Next, I think your opinion is wrong. I think if you travel through just about every part of the south racism is still very prevelent and not going anywhere. While it may not be as bad as it was in the past it is def. still around. You also have to consider that there are more things for people to hate now. Bringing terrorism into the picture and illegal aliens. Racism is very much still alive it is just no longer mainly directed at black people anymore.


I also don't agree with you on your theory of the acceptance of black people. I think it mainly has to with time and the intergration of schools. Younger generations did not grow up with the barriers that older generations did.

Re: Black People
 

That is untrue. Face value of the tickets were lasted at $400. People were scalping for $1,200.

Re: Black People
 

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Completely kidding. Do we have any proof that any tix were listed for $20k/each? Super Bowl tickets don't even go that high.


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CNN ran a segment on it the other day. According to their report, some brokers were asking as much as $27,000 per ticket for the top seats. The report also mentioned that that's more than what the most expensive superbowl tix were going for.

A quick google search yielded this link which isn't CNN but contains the same information as the report.

Re: Black People
 

Hundreds Arrested During NBA All-Star Weekend:

http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=6107862

Re: Black People
 

CNN is wrong.

Re: Black People
 

ummm. I had the complete opposite insight from being on the strip..MGM and exclaiber Sat night through late Sunday. I witnessed nasty comments from both sides using the N word. I saw a few fights, heard what was later a gun and generally was very uncomfortable. Must be nice to sit in Bobby room and think the world is a great place.