Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

Hey guys what do you think of this?
I smelled something fishy and managed to fold this. It's the first time I do this so any opinions are appreciated. This guy played 2 out of 15 hands. I have no other info on him. He stated in the chat that he had QQ. I do not know what he had but QQ, AA is my pick... Anyway.

Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): $90.91
BB: $52.37
UTG: $60.97
CO: $48.71
BTN: $50.25

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $3

Flop: ($8.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $7</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to $56.97 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Results: $22.50 Pot ($1.12 Rake)

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

To me this looks like a set mining line that hit. I fold this.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

As a tight player I believe the QQ and think you made a good fold.

Would you have called if he would have popped it up to 15-20 instead of push.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

I believe UTG puts you on KK or AA, and deems you incapable of folding these hands to a massive overbet. He has 44, 55, or QQ.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

OMG. Call. All. Day. Not exactly a fistpump call but still.

You have 15 hands on the guy and you've convinced yourself he's a nit who just flopped a set. You see all kinds of FDs here, AQ, 67... yes he is going to have a set sometimes but you have to call this with no read. And "he played 2/15 hands" is not a read.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

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OMG. Call. All. Day. Not exactly a fistpump call but still.

You have 15 hands on the guy and you've convinced yourself he's a nit who just flopped a set. You see all kinds of FDs here, AQ, 67... yes he is going to have a set sometimes but you have to call this with no read. And "he played 2/15 hands" is not a read.

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If he has AdXd or OESFD we are coinflipping.... if he has a set we are dead. WTF are we crushing that this is a "call all day"? Is AQo or KQo really jamming for all his chips? Clearly he puts OP on AA/KK and expects him to be unable to lay it down. I use this move CONSTANTLY at 1/2 NL live here in vegas since around 50%+ of tourists ONLY PFR with KK/AA. I just call with ATC and if I am ahead after the flop just move in. They snap call most of the time.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

Why do you all think villain puts you on AA/KK in my experience villain always puts you on AK on every 3bet hand.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

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Why do you all think villain puts you on AA/KK in my experience villain always puts you on AK on every 3bet hand.

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If he puts you on AK in this hand then why would he push with such a huge overbet? There is no way AK could call that. He wants to get paid off a whole stack from AA/KK or possibly AQ No one ever bluff-raises all in on the flop for a full buy-in.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

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Would you have called if he would have popped it up to 15-20 instead of push.

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I don't know man. I think I would at least call it. Perhaps, I d put him AI most of the time.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

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Why do you all think villain puts you on AA/KK in my experience villain always puts you on AK on every 3bet hand.

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If he puts you on AK in this hand then why would he push with such a huge overbet? There is no way AK could call that. He wants to get paid off a whole stack from AA/KK or possibly AQ No one ever bluff-raises all in on the flop for a full buy-in.

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Because maybe he does not have a set 100% of the time.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

Let's see -- you're getting a little less than 3:2. If Villain will only play sets and AdXd this way (equally likely in terms of combos, with the sets probably becoming a little more likely once we take preflop into account), then you have a super-easy fold as a slight favorite to the AdXd and a massive underdog to the sets.

Throw in AQ and say Villain will always play that this way as well, and suddenly we have an easy call.

So hell if I know against an unknown. From what I've seen, these massive overbets are still kind of rare from full stacks, and they're called even more rarely, and as a result they're hard to interpret.

Anyway, I think the fold is all right.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

I think you see a FD just as much as you see a set

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

i dont fold this... people do weird [censored] in 3bet pots. i think folding overpairs in 3bet pots on these flops to unknowns is a recipe for disaster. this can so easily be a FD, random ui pp, SD, a Q... his range is much wider than just sets

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

wtf, move up where they respect your lay downs

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

I gotta call this also. I would think that a set would try to extract more value. I'm more likely to think this was a flush draw, that was looking for a fold, but wasn't horrified by a call. I think you're a slight favorite here, and I always like to get the money in when I'm a favorite.

P.S. GSYKES avatar is giving me nightmares!!

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

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GSYKES avatar is giving me nightmares!!

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Losing propbets suck [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

If he's a tight passive -sounds he might be from your description I fold too - vs loose bad players I snap call - this is Qx/fdraw most of the time - vs him a set.


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GSYKES avatar is giving me nightmares!!

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Losing propbets suck [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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ye me too - subliminal messaging methinks ...

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

please never fold this

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

Wow I cant believe how many people are saying this is a fold. I'm sure were beat here a decent % of the time, but I cant imagine many villains whos range is tight enough to make this a fold, especially if you only have 15 hands on him.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

i cant fold this

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

ugh, me neither, although I'm probably not too excited about calling.

A good player doesn't play a set this way.
A bad player might play a set this way, but they also would play AQ and possibly other assorted junk this way as well.

That makes this a call in my book.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

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ugh, me neither, although I'm probably not too excited about calling.

A good player doesn't play a set this way.
A bad player might play a set this way, but they also would play AQ and possibly other assorted junk this way as well.

That makes this a call in my book.

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In my experience "bad" players almost exclusively slowplay sets. "Good" players at least get some action going on the flop to make the bets bigger on later streets.

I had a note on a player that he can stack off w/ TPWK. I played a set nearly EXACTLY this way and got it all in on the flop. If villain thinks that OP overvalues TP/Overpair, I can see him playing this way.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

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GSYKES avatar is giving me nightmares!!

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Losing propbets suck [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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Muhahahahaha I'm so glad I found that for you!

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

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ugh, me neither, although I'm probably not too excited about calling.

A good player doesn't play a set this way.
A bad player might play a set this way, but they also would play AQ and possibly other assorted junk this way as well.

That makes this a call in my book.

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In my experience "bad" players almost exclusively slowplay sets. "Good" players at least get some action going on the flop to make the bets bigger on later streets.

I had a note on a player that he can stack off w/ TPWK. I played a set nearly EXACTLY this way and got it all in on the flop. If villain thinks that OP overvalues TP/Overpair, I can see him playing this way.

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Bad players come in all varieties. Some slowplay their sets to death, some don't get value off of their sets when they hit because they do stuff like above.

Also, I don't understand your second point. There are always going to be exceptional circumstances like the one that you outline, but do you disagree that a good player in most cases will not play a set like this?

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

I think i have to fold. Generally when i see a min raise and then a call to a reraise I think small pocket pair and AA/KK. I don't think you win here enough to make this call.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

scimming through the first answers in the thread i was like wtf you guys fold this? that seems so stupid...
i´m never laying this down!

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

oh boy, alot of people need to be redirected to ama's thread again.. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...13#Post12133839

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

I'd say 2 hands in fifteen hands is a read if a minor one. We know our opponent isn't a complete donk maniac.

An earlier poster said "good" players never play sets this way but it surely depends on hero's image.

I'm more inclined to fold in this situation with no read.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

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Why do you all think villain puts you on AA/KK in my experience villain always puts you on AK on every 3bet hand.

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Yeah or AQ if a K flops or KQ if an A flops, he'll put you on whatever he beats to make the call/push.

Mack

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

Err, he minraised UTG.. how could we possibly think he's a solid player? Call and cry when you see his superbly played AA or QQ... or 99 or 77 or AQ or whatever he has

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

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OMG. Call. All. Day. Not exactly a fistpump call but still.

You have 15 hands on the guy and you've convinced yourself he's a nit who just flopped a set. You see all kinds of FDs here, AQ, 67... yes he is going to have a set sometimes but you have to call this with no read. And "he played 2/15 hands" is not a read.

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QFT

Seriously. That's a horrendous fold.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

Yowza. I cant fold this.

Its true that the range of hands some villans can hold here is pretty tight, but even if he does have QQ here, calling this bet sends a pretty strong message to the table - "dont even try to [censored] with me in 3bet pots because im not going to fold my overpair" which means that people are gonna tighten up vs you when the bets get big.

Thats great news for you because you can start 3betting a little more liberally, and when someone does play back at you in a 3bet pot, you can just fold your marginal hand without too much difficulty.

Re: Fold KK on the flop after aggression
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling this bet sends a pretty strong message to the table - "dont even try to [censored] with me in 3bet pots because im not going to fold my overpair" which means that people are gonna tighten up vs you when the bets get big.

Thats great news for you because you can start 3betting a little more liberally, and when someone does play back at you in a 3bet pot, you can just fold your marginal hand without too much difficulty.

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There is no way that what you wrote will ever affect my decisions at NL50$. Tables just can't hold long enough to justify your thinking. Also, people fold everything except AK, JJ+ to a 3bet preflop, so that's not a reason for me too. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]