overbet river bluff
 

josh3336 and I dont have too much history before this hand one way or another. TAG images all around.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

td8507: $1,042.00
pickpocketted: $731.00
josh3336: $1,117.00
Hero: $1,191.00
esoteric8: $1,000.00
Juice Crusade: $2,196.50

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">josh3336 raises to $35.00</font>, Hero calls $35.00, 2 folds, td8507 calls $30.00, pickpocketted folds

Flop: ($115) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
td8507 checks, <font color="red">josh3336 bets $70.00</font>, Hero calls $70.00, td8507 folds

Turn: ($255) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
josh3336 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $175.00</font>, josh3336 calls $175.00

River: ($605) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
josh3336 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets all-in for $911.00</font>

Re: overbet river bluff
 

I'd like it more if villain didn't hate folding so much

Re: overbet river bluff
 

i guess it's good, but wouldn't you 3 ball AK preflop? i think you get looked up here.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

i think you're getting looked up here way too much, and the overbet shove does not add any credibility whatsoever. in fact, it probably takes away credibility since he knows that you probably don't put him on AQ+, which would make overbet shoving a ridiculous move since he's folding just about everything

yeah you can rep JT but that's it, if i had AJ here i don't think i'd fold

Re: overbet river bluff
 

I hate this. Esp vs josh. If he mucked it was because he had total air

Re: overbet river bluff
 

i don't think this is bad--your line looks really strong. i suppose a lot comes down to if he's seen you slowplay big flopped hands in the past...otherwise he might be like "WTF, he has JT or nothing."

Re: overbet river bluff
 

what do you try to rep here? JT?
do you normally overbet the nuts at the river too?

is raise flop here also a alternative?
i mean which very strong hand would play pf and flop this way?

hm only hand that make sense is JT (if you play JT this way) or a bluff but aren't there way more hands that could bluf here than JT's who overvaluebet here?

Re: overbet river bluff
 

i did something like this on a 323K6 board the other day. I like it alot better on that board bc you fold out so many pp's. here. Maybe you'll fold out ATss, but JT hit, and most everything else has 2pair+, and those are good hands, and people like to call!

Re: overbet river bluff
 

of course he has a big hand (or at least theyre a significant part of his range), that much is obvious to both of us, and thats why i overbet shoved. if he knows i know he has a big hand and i overbet shove, doesnt it seem like i want a call?

i guess i'm just overthinking things when even good players are just going to say durrrrrrrr i gots two pairs i cant fold them. meh. remind me never to bluff any of yall ever again.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

only great hand that really makes sense for you is JT

Re: overbet river bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
only great hand that really makes sense for you is JT

[/ QUOTE ] and???

btw 77 and AQ make perfect sense, most of the responses in this thread are awful...

Re: overbet river bluff
 

ur repping like j10 here.. or like AQ? I cant see any other legit hands u play like this?

Re: overbet river bluff
 

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and???

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and I think stationy regs are not folding 2 pair

Re: overbet river bluff
 

obv JT

Re: overbet river bluff
 

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and???

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and I think stationy regs are not folding 2 pair

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if he needs 2pr+ to call here then this is likely +EV... and im not sure 2pr is always calling either

Re: overbet river bluff
 

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only great hand that really makes sense for you is JT

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently if you flop a set of 7s you HAVE to raise the flop?

Re: overbet river bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
only great hand that really makes sense for you is JT

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Apparently if you flop a set of 7s you HAVE to raise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i actually don't think this is a bad assumption vs a lot of players.

edit-- just responding to you...as i said above, i think this line looks strong.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

i think he could be decently strong when he bets taht flop into 2 people
and knowing him if he's decently strong he's not folding

this is a great line vs some people tho

Re: overbet river bluff
 

I would love this with JT or 77......because he's not folding the river. He might fold AJ.....maybe.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

why not just raise the flop?

edit: is it because villain would know we're only repping KQ and 77?

Re: overbet river bluff
 

I could raise the flop, but calling is cool too. Don't think one is necessarily much better than the other in this spot.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

This is pretty good because j10o plays the exact same way but when it comes to image are you popping light? (Im thinking he might think j10s will 3b/fold instead of flatting depending how you've been behaving) and whats ur image as far as bluffing been at the table (have you been caught yet, etc?)

If the answer to both of these is no, then this is def goot

Re: overbet river bluff
 

i like a flop raise.
as played i like a turn check behind.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
only great hand that really makes sense for you is JT

[/ QUOTE ] and???

btw 77 and AQ make perfect sense, most of the responses in this thread are awful...

[/ QUOTE ]

flawless u have clearly never played with josh before....

Re: overbet river bluff
 

i think this is mandatory once you've played it this way up to this point

Re: overbet river bluff
 

Wow, missed flush draw = DO NOT BLUFF JOSH 3336!!!!!

You could probably value bet KJ here though.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

i don't get why you say that you put him on a big hand

when board is KQ7Ass and he checks the turn to you, he is repping weakness not strength, strength would be continuing to bet. KJ/AJ/AT/A5/even QJ maybe are what his play is visibly aligned with. especially if he's an aggressive player as you say, a vast majority of the time he's going to be betting the turn with twopair+ since you're taking a free card so much with a flush draw or checking back a pair + gutshot, and of course basic metagame, if he wants to barrel this very good turn in the future he also has to bet it with at least a pair of aces

yeah he might have AA/KK/AK/AQ sometimes if he's playing it tricky but not nearly often enough, and the important thing is that HE DOESN'T EXPECT YOU TO PUT HIM ON THAT RANGE. i.e., when you overbet shoves into him when he is playing his hand slowly, he is going to think you're trying to make him fold the mediocre hand that he's repping and therefore he should call.

that's just what i think anyway and i obv am a terrible station tiltmonkey so w/e

Re: overbet river bluff
 

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He might fold AJ.....maybe.

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This is insane. Of course he's folding AJ. I think a set calls here a large % of the time. The gray area lies in the AK/AQ type hands, and I'm really not sure what to think. Overall, I like the play, but would say that it's marginally EV+.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
only great hand that really makes sense for you is JT

[/ QUOTE ] and???

btw 77 and AQ make perfect sense, most of the responses in this thread are awful...

[/ QUOTE ]

flawless u have clearly never played with josh before....

[/ QUOTE ]how is this relevant?

Re: overbet river bluff
 

coke whore sorry you dont get it, you must not ever "read" your opponents or take notes.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

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He might fold AJ.....maybe.

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This is insane. Of course he's folding AJ. I think a set calls here a large % of the time. The gray area lies in the AK/AQ type hands, and I'm really not sure what to think. Overall, I like the play, but would say that it's marginally EV+.

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sorry but if you read the thread, just about everyone who has played villain has said he will not fold AJ to this action.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

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[ QUOTE ]
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He might fold AJ.....maybe.

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This is insane. Of course he's folding AJ. I think a set calls here a large % of the time. The gray area lies in the AK/AQ type hands, and I'm really not sure what to think. Overall, I like the play, but would say that it's marginally EV+.

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sorry but if you read the thread, just about everyone who has played villain has said he will not fold AJ to this action.

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To be honest, I think he will either put Sensei on the nuts or a missed flush draw everyime here, and could call as light as a Q or whatever. I think he would also see the overbet shove as more of a bluff.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

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i don't get why you say that you put him on a big hand

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1) its not a monster hand. But it is a strongish hand. I think he bet-calls turn with any set. I think its a big ace, whether its kicker is paired or not. He's not c/c-ing a bet that size on the turn as some sort of reverse float or something, he needs to have showdown value to continue out of position because of the implied threat of my remaining stack, and he doesnt want to lead again with hands like those because he hates to see me shove over the top (which is obviously an option for me here)

I guess its just a matter of RPS-style leveling, and without more of a history the default for most players nowadays is "call the first time and make them show you a winner".

Re: overbet river bluff
 

does it make a difference if we overbet the turn and set the river up for a less awkward all in bet?

Re: overbet river bluff
 

turn overbet doesnt really make much sense, though i imagine we could go pot-pot and get it in on river that way. i dont pot the turn like ever though cause i dont think its generally a good bet size, so that would be kinda weird to do. might look pretty strong though.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

I just think less is better. seems like you're asking a little much for him to fold two pair here, and seems like he'd fold worse than two pair to a roughly pot-sized bet.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

Meh, this is fine against someone decent, maybe bad if he is a huge calling station. Your line definitely looks strong.

Re: overbet river bluff
 

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I hate this. Esp vs josh. If he mucked it was because he had total air

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100% agree, i find it almost impossible to ever push him off anything