NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

He is regular on NL100, solid player. He has about 230$, i have about 100$.

Hero dealt QQ
SB raises to 3.5$
Hero reraises to 10.5$
SB rereraises to 28.5$

Hero?

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

Easy shove

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

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Easy shove

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not an easy shove. but yeah, i think it is still a shove, since i can imagine AQs and JJ in their range, and maybe even AQo and TT.

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

What is your image? How often have you 3bet? How often has he 4bet? Hard to answer this without some reads.

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Easy shove

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not an easy shove. but yeah, i think it is still a shove, since i can imagine AQs and JJ in their range, and maybe even AQo and TT.

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Its actually a really easy shove. You're OOP so just calling then getting it in is terrible...and you couldnt be possibly thinking of laying it down..so yes...really easy shove. Your ranges are pretty accurate for a solid reg.

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy shove

[/ QUOTE ]

not an easy shove. but yeah, i think it is still a shove, since i can imagine AQs and JJ in their range, and maybe even AQo and TT.

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Its actually a really easy shove. You're OOP so just calling then getting it in is terrible...and you couldnt be possibly thinking of laying it down..so yes...really easy shove. Your ranges are pretty accurate for a solid reg.

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yeah was basically my logic. the only reason i put it down as not easy is that i think alot of people would be surprised by how little this is AQ/TT. that being said, its pretty horrible for metagame laying down QQ, there is a solid amount in the pot, and QQ performs well enough vs AK to make up for the chance that hero is up against AA/ KK

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

Thanks for the answers.

I was 3betting alot, because he raised alot from the sb. This was the first 4bet. My Image was aggressiv, maybe a bit to aggressiv.
I put it all in and got called by AA. His aces held up.

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy shove

[/ QUOTE ]

not an easy shove. but yeah, i think it is still a shove, since i can imagine AQs and JJ in their range, and maybe even AQo and TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its actually a really easy shove. You're OOP so just calling then getting it in is terrible...and you couldnt be possibly thinking of laying it down..so yes...really easy shove. Your ranges are pretty accurate for a solid reg.

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Why is a stop n go 'terrible' here?

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy shove

[/ QUOTE ]

not an easy shove. but yeah, i think it is still a shove, since i can imagine AQs and JJ in their range, and maybe even AQo and TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its actually a really easy shove. You're OOP so just calling then getting it in is terrible...and you couldnt be possibly thinking of laying it down..so yes...really easy shove. Your ranges are pretty accurate for a solid reg.

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Why is a stop n go 'terrible' here?

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because the flop could go check check and if its ace or king high by the turn you'll really have no idea where you stand and with only around a pot sized bet left its just an ugly spot to be in. Also you dont get value out of TT JJ and could easily get bluffed off the best hand

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy shove

[/ QUOTE ]

not an easy shove. but yeah, i think it is still a shove, since i can imagine AQs and JJ in their range, and maybe even AQo and TT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its actually a really easy shove. You're OOP so just calling then getting it in is terrible...and you couldnt be possibly thinking of laying it down..so yes...really easy shove. Your ranges are pretty accurate for a solid reg.

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Why is a stop n go 'terrible' here?

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because the flop could go check check and if its ace or king high by the turn you'll really have no idea where you stand and with only around a pot sized bet left its just an ugly spot to be in. Also you dont get value out of TT JJ and could easily get bluffed off the best hand

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Does this mean that a full stacked reg will call the push w TT and JJ? I guess he would assume he is 50:50 or crushed or bluff catching.

I think a stop and go is problematic not just for the issue you raise but it would narrow our pushing group down to AK, KK, and AA, no? And this is too easy to play against this recently aggressive reg.

If it weren't for this I would like to call and go for a cr on any flop inc A or K and if he checks flop behind then bet non A,K turn.

I don't think we can get value from this villain holding 88-TT, AQ any other way. I doubt he is calling pf push often enough with worse so we have to give him a chance to bet flop with full range but I don't play full stacked so my assessment may be off.

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

OP said his imagine was very aggressive, you'll get a solid reg to call with something like 99-AA and AJss+ if you shove here. So he had AA this time...big deal...I play the hand this way everytime

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

I don't see great value in shoving on this spot. I'm much more into calling, even being OOP.

Calling you accomplish 2 things:

1. (that's the most important reason) If, after the flop, you read his hand as being AK (he was probably calling your shove anyway), and if you call and only let villain see three cards, you increase substantially your equity. If the flop is Q-high just slowplay.

2. If the flop is low cards and he has AA or KK, you're going broke anyway, and so does he if he has JJ or TT. You can run into a set of jacks of course, but I think the odds that villain flops a set are pretty much counterfeited by the chances the flop is going to be low cards and you're stacking him or flop will be high cards and kill the action.
Also, by calling you can confuse him into thinking you have AK yourself, making less likely that villain will bluff you out on scare cards.

After the flop my line would be:

1. High cards- check/fold to any substantial bet, If he bets less than half, I'm pushing. If he checks, I'm going broke on the turn anyway.

2. Low cards- can be played in a variety of ways

3. JTx- check/fold since you're only beating AK and AQ.

I'd appreciate some comments on my thinking.

Edit: shame on the OP who posted the results only 3 hours after creating the thread

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

Your thinking is flawed in that you putting in too much effort to try and stack the villain after being overaggressive up until now and basically setting yourself up for this spot.

Calling is bad because you are OOP and if villain has AK he will more than likely check the flop...you are now letting him see 4 cards for free. (nobody is folding AK to hero preflop so just get it in pre). Don't worry about increasing your equity in the hand...thats just playing weak.

If the flop comes A or K high you wont be getting anymore value from JJ and TT and have a good chance of being bluffed off the best hand. Your theory of shoving if he bets half pot is totally wrong, its a 4 bet pot..if the flop comes A or K high he knows he's going broke so why bet 3/4 pot or something that looks like he;s committing himself to the pot...I bet half pot here almost always. So your idea of pushing over that bet is going to get you into a lot of trouble...Only hands that beat you are calling and you pushing out everything you beat already. This is why calling a 4 bet with QQ oop is baaaaad.

C/f on a JTx flop is also spew, this isnt 6max, you are giving villain too narrow of a range, I absolutely get it in on this flop always.

In summary, given hero's image you dont have to do anything but shove to get villain to call with much worse

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

Your reasoning is good at some points but clearly your goal is not to analyse the play but to disprove my thought.

Increase my equity in every hand is, beyond making tons of money, my utmost goal, and if you think "you're playing weak" is an argument... I feel sorry for you.

You made good points tough.

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

I said "thats just playing weak" not just you, if people don;t want to get it in with QQ against AK until they see a non A or K flop, then yes that is terribly weak...i dunno...i'm sorry you take offense to that.

Nothing wrong with increasing your equity in a hand, but in this example it will come at the cost of losing tons of value.

Anyway i'm done with this thread, you're taking offense when i'm trying to help you. You asked for comments on your way of thinking, I thought it was way off and weak..so I said so. If there were points I agreed with then I would say so, I just couldnt see anything I agreed with.

GL

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

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OP said his imagine was very aggressive, you'll get a solid reg to call with something like 99-AA and AJss+ if you shove here. So he had AA this time...big deal...I play the hand this way everytime

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wow almost all of the hand analysis occurred before we knew results . . .

also, just because he is aggressive does not necessarily mean villain thinks he is shoving lightly, and certainly does not mean villain is 4 betting light.

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

Thats true but he's def gonna be calling a shove from hero more than he would from an unknown, given the flow of the match so far

Re: NL100 QQ in BB ugly action
 

I'd shove it, too. You need some read that he is likely gonna mess it up postflop in order to simply call here.