A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

Hey guys,
I am playing poker for over 3 years now. I started playing limit hold'em but eventually shifted to no-limit SNGs and MTTs. I did okay and built a reasonable bankroll playing in those tournaments.

Even though I enjoy playing SNGs and MTTs, my long-term goal is to become a very successful limit player.

At the time I quit playing limit hold'em (almost 2 years ago) I was playing 5/10 (with some 3/6 6max) and I was a breakeven player.

Today, I have more than enough bankroll to play in a 5/10 game but I want to prove myself that I can beat this level before I advance any further. In other words, I want to improve my limit game both theoretically and practically.

Below are the books that I have in "my poker archive" regarding to limit hold'em;

1) Winning Low limit Hold'em by Lee Jones
2) The Theory of Poker by David Sklansky
3) Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney
4) Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller, David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth
5) Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players by David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth
6) Super System 2 (Limit section by Jennifer Harman)
7) Internet Texas Hold'em by Matthew Hilger
8) Middle Limit Holdem Poker by Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier
9) Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker by King Yao
10) Winning in Tough Hold'em Games by Stoxtrader and Zobags
11) How Good is Your Limit Hold'em? by Byron Jacobs and Jim Brier
12) Advanced Limit Hold'em Strategy by Barry Tanenbaum

I have read the first 4 books and mostly skimmed through the other ones.

I am a patient person who wants to study the game before (and during) I hit the limit tables again.
But I am not sure which book should I be reading first. In which order would you prefer to read these books? Any books that you wouldnt even bother reading?

It would be great if some of you can point me to right direction by saying "that book is good for x limits only" or "you should definitely read x book in order to compete in a 5/10 game" etc.

Thank you

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

Read the books in this order:

Small Stakes Hold'em
Weighing the Odds
Theory of Poker
Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players
Real Poker II: The Play of Hands (Not currently on your list. Go buy it. Today.)
Winning in Tough Hold'em Games
Middle Limit Hold'em
How Good is Your Limit Hold'em?

That's just 8 books rather than the 12 you had listed. However I think that if you just read & re-read these, particularly the last four, you'd be ready for any game you were properly rolled for.

And every once through the cycle grab one of Mason's Essays and read that. There's plenty of gold in there. Ciaffone's Improve Your Poker, too.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

I'd cut down on your reading list a bit and read these books in the following order:

Theory:
1. Small Stakes Hold'em
2. Weighing the Odds
3. Winning in Tough Hold'em Games

Practice:
1. Real Poker II: The Play of Hands
2. How Good is Your Limit Hold'em?

All of the above books are outstanding IMHO.

Forget 'Middle Limit Hold'em' which time has passed by. It teaches weak tight strategies that will get you robbed deaf, dumb and blind by the much more aggressive play in today's internet games.

At the risk of getting burned at the 2+2 stake I would suggest there is no point in reading 'HPFAP' as well as 'Weighing the Odds'. HPFAP is still a very good book, but Yao's book covers the same ground in more detail and has a clearer writing style. Even a critic as tough as Mason gave 'Weighing the Odds' 8.5/10.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

[ QUOTE ]
Forget 'Middle Limit Hold'em' which time has passed by. It teaches weak tight strategies that will get you robbed deaf, dumb and blind by the much more aggressive play in today's internet games.



[/ QUOTE ]

I was under the impression that middle limit holdem was still worth reading if you could understand at which points the strategy in the book is wrong to follow?

Secondly, the poster didnt mention about playing online, only that he wished to play $5/$10...so i would assume that would be more likely to be live. If so, would the CAffione book be worthwhile reading for the live games?

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

Are we talking six max or ??


If six max then

SSHE and WITHG is enough. (you might wan't to add in the borer and lawrence book if you want something more basic before WITHG .. or to replace SSHE (can you read boards and count out ... sure you can, so SSHE is not essential anymore)

TOP is a nice addition and you are set.


HGIYLH by Jacobs might also be worth considering since it is a workbook.

Anything else you read will not add anything new just revisiting old material

Tho if you want a pleasant read there is tanenbaums book, that is inspirational and falls between the beginners and really advanced stuff.



Let's not overdo it.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

If you're playing 6max, WITHG is by far the best book ever written.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

Thanks for all the feedback.
I forgot to mention that I'll be playing mostly online and probably start with full table until I get comfortable with the way I play and then move to 6max.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

If you play live, add Gary Carson's "Complete Book of HE poker" and Caro's Book of Tells.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

How about "Limit Hold'em: Winning Short Handed Strategies" by Borer, Mak and Tanenbaum?

Is this book any good and would it be a good addition to the Limit Hold'em library?

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

The new D&B shorthanded book by Terry Borer, Lawrence Mak and Barry Tanenbaum is the best material available when it comes to shorthanded play and is a must have for any limit player.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

1) Winning Low limit Hold'em by Lee Jones

at your level, you can skip

2) The Theory of Poker by David Sklansky

This is never a bad idea, but not required reading, not in any particular order

3) Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney

yes, second batch

4) Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller, David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth

First batch

5) Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players by David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth

Second batch

6) Super System 2 (Limit section by Jennifer Harman)

skip

7) Internet Texas Hold'em by Matthew Hilger

First batch, first book

8) Middle Limit Holdem Poker by Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier

Second batch, for tight games against opponents who basically play stronger cards and stronger hands

9) Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker by King Yao

Don't know

10) Winning in Tough Hold'em Games by Stoxtrader and Zobags

Second batch, depending on what type of games you end up in (this is for shorthanded games mostly)

11) How Good is Your Limit Hold'em? by Byron Jacobs and Jim Brier

First batch

12) Advanced Limit Hold'em Strategy by Barry Tanenbaum

Haven't read yet

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

Like the other advice, you should add Cooke's book to your first batch. Unlike what others have said, you should probably read Hilger first.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

I can't really add anything about the books, although I have read most of them.

My question is: why are you not interested in playing no-limit, especially after your tournament experience?

I was a limit player for a long time. I play mostly nl now and probably won't go back. You can make more money with less variance in no limit. I know it's counterintuitive, but it's true.

It's harder to find good books on nl/pl but they are out there. 2+2 has some good ones including PROFESSIONAL NO LIMIT HOLD 'EM by Flynn, Mehta, and Miller and NO LIMIT HOLD 'EM: THEORY AND PRACTICE by Skalnsky and Miller.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

[ QUOTE ]
Forget 'Middle Limit Hold'em' which time has passed by. It teaches weak tight strategies that will get you robbed deaf, dumb and blind by the much more aggressive play in today's internet games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't believe this, it is a superb book. True, it is written for full-tables against good players, so it does not always apply. But you have to be able to adapt to opponents, so you need to know how to use Ciaffone's tight approach. It still applies to short-handed anytime there's a large field. The thinking process it teaches is priceless. A must-read, high on your list.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

1) Winning Low limit Hold'em by Lee Jones
crap
2) The Theory of Poker by David Sklansky
good
3) Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney
not needed
4) Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller, David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth
definitely not needed
5) Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players by David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth
not needed
6) Super System 2 (Limit section by Jennifer Harman)
full ring abc but recommended
7) Internet Texas Hold'em by Matthew Hilger
Full ring. I don't think I got anything from it, but can't say it's to be ignored, just a sort of pale.
8) Middle Limit Holdem Poker by Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier
The game type exists only offline.
9) Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker by King Yao
no need
10) Winning in Tough Hold'em Games by Stoxtrader and Zobags
shorthanded games, specifically for high limits but rates like a mandatory book for any serious shorthanded player.
11) How Good is Your Limit Hold'em? by Byron Jacobs and Jim Brier
no need
12) Advanced Limit Hold'em Strategy by Barry Tanenbaum
I don't know, probably some abc book by my standards.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) Winning Low limit Hold'em by Lee Jones
crap
2) The Theory of Poker by David Sklansky
good
3) Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney
not needed
4) Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller, David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth
definitely not needed
5) Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players by David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth
not needed
6) Super System 2 (Limit section by Jennifer Harman)
full ring abc but recommended
7) Internet Texas Hold'em by Matthew Hilger
Full ring. I don't think I got anything from it, but can't say it's to be ignored, just a sort of pale.
8) Middle Limit Holdem Poker by Bob Ciaffone and Jim Brier
The game type exists only offline.
9) Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker by King Yao
no need
10) Winning in Tough Hold'em Games by Stoxtrader and Zobags
shorthanded games, specifically for high limits but rates like a mandatory book for any serious shorthanded player.
11) How Good is Your Limit Hold'em? by Byron Jacobs and Jim Brier
no need
12) Advanced Limit Hold'em Strategy by Barry Tanenbaum
I don't know, probably some abc book by my standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty ridiculous comments. wrt Ciaffone's book, your comment is just not true. wrt your list in general, basically you recommend Theory of Poker for limit players and that's it? Ridiculous.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

A limit hold 'em player could skip TOP entirely and it wouldn't hamper your development at all. That book is not as necessary to your development as a lot of people seem to think. As for Middle Limit Hold 'em, I can't believe that a lot of people still think this book has any merit. If you played like they recommend you would go broke quickly- way too weak tight and passive, you'd just get run all over in the aggressive internet games.

For what it's worth my LHE required reading list would be much smaller than some of the others here. I would go in no particular order:

* SSHE- The best limit book ever written. Forget people that say stupid stuff like "But there are no games where I see 6 players to a flop so the book must be useless now" If you understand the concepts you will be able to adapt to any game.

* Internet Texas hold em- You could read this in addition to SSHE. I guess you could actually read it instead of SSHE but given the choice, SSHE is slightly better.

* Limit hold 'em Winning shorthanded strategies- The best shorthanded material available bar none.

* HGIYLH- Just to "test" yourself on how well you understand important limit ideas.

I guess if you are playing in super tough short games then Stox's book would be worth a read, it is also very good.

That's about it, concentrate on those books alone, you don't need any others.

Re: A Question for Limit Hold\'em Players
 

[ QUOTE ]
A limit hold 'em player could skip TOP entirely and it wouldn't hamper your development at all. That book is not as necessary to your development as a lot of people seem to think. As for Middle Limit Hold 'em, I can't believe that a lot of people still think this book has any merit. If you played like they recommend you would go broke quickly- way too weak tight and passive, you'd just get run all over in the aggressive internet games.

For what it's worth my LHE required reading list would be much smaller than some of the others here. I would go in no particular order:

* SSHE- The best limit book ever written. Forget people that say stupid stuff like "But there are no games where I see 6 players to a flop so the book must be useless now" If you understand the concepts you will be able to adapt to any game.

* Internet Texas hold em- You could read this in addition to SSHE. I guess you could actually read it instead of SSHE but given the choice, SSHE is slightly better.

* Limit hold 'em Winning shorthanded strategies- The best shorthanded material available bar none.

* HGIYLH- Just to "test" yourself on how well you understand important limit ideas.

I guess if you are playing in super tough short games then Stox's book would be worth a read, it is also very good.

That's about it, concentrate on those books alone, you don't need any others.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the above list is very good if you want to keep the book list short.
However, I really believe there are two books that need to be included:
1) Roy Cooke's book: Play of Hands II should be included in any serious limit hold'em study.
There really is no other book like it where you can actually go into the mind of top mid limit player.

Of course, you can just go to Cardplayer and download all of his articles from there as well.

2) Hold'em for Advance Players by Mason and David.
This one is a perennial classic and still contains very pertinent advice