Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

No history, villian just sat. On the turn I'm considering $10, check, and shove. I don't know if he can lay down a draw and I'm sure I have the best hand at least 15-25% of the time or so. If you don't like the flop then let me know how you play it. Oh yea...he instacalled flop and instachecked the turn.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP3 ($24.75)
CO ($4.40)
Button ($25)
SB ($32.55)
Hero ($28.85)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($20.45)
MP1 ($23.95)
MP2 ($13.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">7 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.25</font>, SB calls $1.75.

Flop: ($4.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $0.75</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5.5</font>, SB calls $4.75.

Turn: ($15.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ???

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

Flop looks fine, and I like $10 on the turn. I would give up after that though as you have no fold equity on the river. Looks like a FD, hope he doesn't catch a piece on the river to beat your ace high.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

His call on the flop means we're behind, I believe. I check here. If he has a J, we have one out. If he has a 9, we're drawing dead. Instacall/instacheck is an interesting line--going for check-raise? Check behind on river if you get the chance; fold if not.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

I'm sorry to deviate from your original question; however, I don't get PF.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

Pf looks like spew you said you have no history.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

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I'm sorry to deviate from your original question; however, I don't get PF.

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He minraised the SB. I have way too good a hand to fold and calling is meh since I don't know his postflop tendencies. I suppose you advoate calling, but if I put in a raise then I have the initiative postflop and likely the best hand at this point anyways. If he folds then thats fine too. Also, Axs is a pretty good hand to 3bet in this spot.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

I always get owned when I try stuff like this

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

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I always get owned when I try stuff like this

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So that means you hate it or it just doesn't work vs. retard donks or it should work, but you run bad in these spots?

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

I'm always amazed with people willing to play for stacks in NL25 blind wars with crappy hands...

You raised too much preflop. He didn't fold, you have no reads, why do you assume he's on a draw? Or what makes you think your draw is better than his? You asked about flop, I think you played fine, the weird stuff is preflop. Turn and river should be folding time, what are you ahead in this hand?

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

The blinds are so low at this level vs average pot size its not worth trying to defend them this much.

Secondly the 3 wouldn't be a card that would let me fire a second barrel. You could be against some type of over pair, perhaps he spiked the 9, or he just doesn't believe you and is calling down with a J. What would he call a massive (vs pot) sized bet that a 3 would change? If he is on a flush draw it seems he is calling you down no matter what you bet. If he thinks his J or whatever is good on the flop, a 3 won't change it.

I don't think his check is a sign of weakness, merely letting you get a big club and whack yourself over the head with it betting yourself to death.

Check / Fold to aggression on the river, I personally wouldn't make that type of move again. You can make so much more playing ABC poker, and with a lot lower risk / variance.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

Grandmelon, pf and flop are standard (or at least not bad)?

Peleus, thank you for your post. The middle of it was both well written and thought out. However, I have to disagree with the fact that you can make more playing ABC poker. There are so many spots at these levels to exploit that you might as well burn money if you are missing them (for the most part I will play pretty standard and very fast with all made hands and big draws, but marginal spots like this one can help a lot if you maximize your EV in them). I also really don't shy away from variance at all. As for not defending my blind, well thats just not my stlye with a hand that is ahead of his range and a minraise. You can argue for a call preflop and I wouldn't even say that is bad, but I lose the inititive in the hand at that point and will then be folding the majority of the flops when he cbets. Your discussion of the turn was what I was looking for though.

Marcus, OP reads a little choppy so sorry about that. I was trying to say that he should have a draw at least a signifiant portion of the time and very few of them are ahead of me. Its not that I'm necessarily putting his range strictly on draws although the donk bet on the flop and instacheck on the turn make me weight his range more that way. I don't think the pf raise is off at all in sizing really. I make it the same with any hand I 3bet if I have to do it over again. Also, if I bet again its as a bluff obv although I will be ahead of most/a lot of the draws he has. Sometimes he'll fold unerpairs and possible even a jack though and I expect most fullstacks to fold draws although thats probably optimistic of me. Thanks for thoughts on turn play though.

If I check I'm obviously folding all non-A rivers or checking behind. If I bet $10 its with the intention of it being the last money I put in the pot (will vbet AI on river aces if checked to). If I shove its because a draw is the majority of his range. More thoughts? I'll post the action I took and results tomorrow.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

With no read on villain, he could be minraising a wide range here. What neccessarily makes you think that you are ahead here after he calls your (large) 3 bet? Flop bet is standard I think. After you are called its time to give up. There is no reason to think that he is on a draw here with no reads. its possible, but I think that you need to be quite certain to continue betting this pot.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, I have to disagree with the fact that you can make more playing ABC poker. There are so many spots at these levels to exploit that you might as well burn money if you are missing them (for the most part I will play pretty standard and very fast with all made hands and big draws, but marginal spots like this one can help a lot if you maximize your EV in them). I also really don't shy away from variance at all. As for not defending my blind, well thats just not my stlye with a hand that is ahead of his range and a minraise. You can argue for a call preflop and I wouldn't even say that is bad, but I lose the inititive in the hand at that point and will then be folding the majority of the flops when he cbets.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with Peleus, you are wasting money on agressivelly defending your blinds at this level. If he had nothing he'd have folded pf anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
Marcus, OP reads a little choppy so sorry about that. I was trying to say that he should have a draw at least a signifiant portion of the time and very few of them are ahead of me. Its not that I'm necessarily putting his range strictly on draws although the donk bet on the flop and instacheck on the turn make me weight his range more that way. I don't think the pf raise is off at all in sizing really. I make it the same with any hand I 3bet if I have to do it over again.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, maybe I misread it. You aren't betting twice the pot, you are 3 betting 4x his raise, is that so? So, in another hand, if someone in MP bets $1 do you 3 bet to $4.75?

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Also, if I bet again its as a bluff obv although I will be ahead of most/a lot of the draws he has. Sometimes he'll fold unerpairs and possible even a jack though and I expect most fullstacks to fold draws although thats probably optimistic of me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

Take the free card. He either has a jack or better pair or draw. Slight possibility he has a 9 too. He's not folding any of these unless you bet a very high amount which I don't think we want to do. It would be a real drag to lose $28.85 trying to defend $0.25.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

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I agree with Peleus, you are wasting money on agressivelly defending your blinds at this level. If he had nothing he'd have folded pf anyway.


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Villains get strange in blind battles and usually open up their ranges. So if Villain has a weak hand preflop, he doesn't automatically muck it to a 3bet.

I don't think this is a waste of money, I would do the same thing. Playing ABC poker at NL25 is optimal, but I agree with CalledDownLight that this is a situation that most would avoid but can definitely be profitable. Most likely, villain is looking to take down the quarter and move on, as shown by his min raise. A4s is ahead of a large part of villains range here which warrants a 3bet, especially since if he calls as he did, we will be playing the hand in position. The donk bet and instacall appears to be a draw IMO. The problem is, can you get a typical NL25 villain off his draw. I don't think we can justify a check here by not wanting to lose 100+BB just to defend 1BB. We can't look back to preflop action to justify a weak play on the turn. I'm firing another bullet here.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I agree with Peleus, you are wasting money on agressivelly defending your blinds at this level. If he had nothing he'd have folded pf anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]
Villains get strange in blind battles and usually open up their ranges. So if Villain has a weak hand preflop, he doesn't automatically muck it to a 3bet.

I don't think this is a waste of money, I would do the same thing. Playing ABC poker at NL25 is optimal, but I agree with CalledDownLight that this is a situation that most would avoid but can definitely be profitable. Most likely, villain is looking to take down the quarter and move on, as shown by his min raise. A4s is ahead of a large part of villains range here which warrants a 3bet, especially since if he calls as he did, we will be playing the hand in position. The donk bet and instacall appears to be a draw IMO. The problem is, can you get a typical NL25 villain off his draw. I don't think we can justify a check here by not wanting to lose 100+BB just to defend 1BB. We can't look back to preflop action to justify a weak play on the turn. I'm firing another bullet here.

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Seems we rarely agree but

+1 vote from me.

Only thing that worries me is villain having QQ,KK,AA and was trying to trap you preflop with the min bet. I also see this strange betting sequence occasionally from meek players drawing. I hammer them and I think it is a super standard/profitable play for me too. The pot has escalated to more than 1bb, so lets not lament what is in the past. You have position on him, my read and your read are both that he is on a draw 95% of the time. My experience has been that they give up the draws most of the time on the turn, so fire another shell and personally, I bet till they fold, or show me their 8h7h.

Villain called me down last week with 96o, called his last 30bb's with no pair, busted draw, I won with Q high. I'm not being results oriented, they fold often enough that I think my betting was warranted on every street and I trust my reads, if I'm wrong I make a note.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

I always ask "why bother" when people try this stuff. You don't know anything about this guy. You've reraised preflop and got called, then raised the flop and got called. Why do you think this guy is going away? Betting $10 puts over half your stack in the pot on a bluff that seems to have very little chance of working. I don't like it.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

I bother because it works often enough to be profitable IMO.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

Yes, when you actually know something about your opponent. Blindly doing this against a dope who will call down with 55 is not profitable.

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

If we're so blind how do we know he's calling down with 55?

Re: Fire Again? Blind battle at NL25
 

Ok so the results are in. I fired again for $10 and he folded without hesitation. It was just a tricky spot for me because I don't do much blind battling and I'm trying to up the aggression a little bit. FWIW, I think pf is still pretty standard and the flop is standard for me because I hate those gay donk bets.