Overs buttons
 

I have been offered overs buttons before but never accepted them. Last night was the exception. I was hot right out of the gate and built a nice stack of chips. I figured "what the hell" and asked for an over button.

For anyone who doesn't know what playing "overs" means heres a definition:
A side betting arrangement where when the only players left in a hand are those involved in the overs, they are able to bet at a higher limit against each other than normally allowed

In our case at the beginning of a street if the only players left in the hand had overs buttons, all the bets are then doubled(i.e. 5-10 becomes 10-20 for the rest of the hand) The game I was in was 10 handed and about 5 of us had overs buttons. I started to think about what adjustments I should make to my game.

Usually we did not go to overs until the river. Never on the flop and seldom on the turn. With the bets being substantially higher on the river, the increased implied odds would dictate that I could play more speculative hands provided there were already a couple of people with overs buttons already in the hand. It also means some fish types would be making correct calls on earlier streets which would otherwise be incorrect if we weren't playing with overs buttons.

What do you folks think of overs buttons? Can a good player use it to a substantial advantage? Does it help the fish types more?

Stu

Re: Overs buttons
 

one question:

if the only players left are players with overs, is the rule that they *can* bet double or they *must*? Is it like when fourth street pairs in stud?

Re: Overs buttons
 

do u hafta play "overs" if all of the holders r the only ones left or can u decide each hand? i wouldn't mind playing if the competition was soft although i don't see the fish wanting to use them.

Re: Overs buttons
 

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if the only players left are players with overs, is the rule that they *can* bet double or they *must*? Is it like when fourth street pairs in stud?

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If the street starts with just players who have overs buttons the bets must be doubled; there is no choice. If the street starts with at least one player who does not have an overs button the bets are the normal size for that entire street(even if the non overs player folds at the first bet or checks out).

Stu

Re: Overs buttons
 

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do u hafta play "overs" if all of the holders r the only ones left or can u decide each hand? i wouldn't mind playing if the competition was soft although i don't see the fish wanting to use them.

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Its my understanding that if you have an overs button in front of you and the only other players involved in the hand(at the beginning of the street) also have overs buttons in front of them, then you "hafta" play overs.

In that game I found myself sometimes calling a flop bet instead of raising. I did not want to risk knocking out the only player with out an overs button on the flop.

Stu

Re: Overs buttons
 

Stu:

The problem with playing overs is that the size of the pot is now cut in 1/2 compared to the size of your bet or raise. I generally wouldn't recommend playing overs because its usually not to the players advantage - unless you feel like gambling.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Overs buttons
 

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I generally wouldn't recommend playing overs because its usually not to the players advantage - unless you feel like gambling.


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This is way way way untrue. You get to make decisions for larger amounts of money than normal against players whom you supposedly make better decisions than.

OP: tend to go further with drawing hands - for instance a gutshot on the turn when you are only getting 9:1 would be a fold, except if you can get a double sized bet in on the river your implied odds might turn it into a call. Basically it makes the game a bit more like NL.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Overs buttons
 

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Stu:

The problem with playing overs is that the size of the pot is now cut in 1/2 compared to the size of your bet or raise. I generally wouldn't recommend playing overs because its usually not to the players advantage - unless you feel like gambling.


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say what? It's just like any other poker dude.

Re: Overs buttons
 

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I generally wouldn't recommend playing overs because its usually not to the players advantage - unless you feel like gambling.


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This is way way way untrue. You get to make decisions for larger amounts of money than normal against players whom you supposedly make better decisions than.

OP: tend to go further with drawing hands - for instance a gutshot on the turn when you are only getting 9:1

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I used to feel the same as you Donkey, but the more brain power I put into this the less I like the idea of playing overs (I have never been in a situation where overs button is permitted so I admit I have no real world application). Standard situation hero raises preflop, 2 callers one of whom has an overs button. 7.5 SB to the flop. Hero bets, middle player folds and now the overs kick in. If the stakes were 5/10 and the agreement was to double the stakes the effective pot size is now 4.5/1. You now are restricted in some of your actions. Its even more magnifided when the overs are HU and there was no pre-flop raise, it might be in the neighborhood of a 1.5:1 pot size at most.

Please show some applied examples where playing overs allows additional advantages, I could be thinking incorrectly and I'm open minded.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Overs buttons
 

While I've never played in a game with said buttons, I have to agree with the crowd saying it can be used to your advantage. Off the top of my head, here are the ways I can see that happening & adjustments I would make:

1) Implied odds go up when there few non-button players in a hand. Increase calling rate with drawing hands accordingly.

2) Oftentimes with a lock in limit you avoid raising to get additional players in the pot. Such plays are usually very marginal ie. the edge they give you is small because at the same time you're getting more ways of action you're missing a bet. The presence or absence of buttons on various players will change that thinking. If the people who will have to call your raise cold don't have buttons, and the people who are already in for a bet do, you would now more frequently prefer to raise and play the next street at higher limits. If the opposite is true, your decision making would be no different from a normal game or possibly even favor calling.

3) Following on 2, position relative to the buttons now matters. Buttons on your right, no buttons on your left gives you the maximal ability to decide the stakes the next street is played for. Consider a strategic seat change (taking other positional factors into account) if needed. Since buttons usually probably imply aggressive, it's likely you'll want them on your right anyways.

4) Buttons will help you determine how much gamble your opponents have, which may be informative for hand reading purposes. The presence or absence of a button will likely tell you whether a tight player is a nit or a shark, for example. Obviously, this is only a first estimate and subsequent play overrides it.

5) Your button or lack thereof will affect your image. I think under most circumstances your image with a button would be more profitable.

6) Having a button makes it easier to bluff into 3 person fields where the person last to act also has a button but the guy in the middle does not, especially on the flop since if you get the first one out, you get to hit the 2nd one with a 4x bet on the turn, which is almost NL-like. The fear of this may inspire even lose players into a "if he folds, I fold" policy. For once you get to wield the hammer of future bets in a limit game [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

7) Assuming an appropriate roll, bigger stakes are superior to small stakes against opponents you can beat. Since it'll be the same guys button or no, have a button unless you just can't afford it (assuming you're a winning player). On the other hand, if you're the 2nd best player at the table, and the only guy with a button is first best, obviously don't take one.

Anyways, that's my initial thoughts...

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The only time I have ever played with overs buttons was a limit game that became NL w/ overs. Several of us had cash on the table for the NL portion only. I found this extremely profitable since the limit players did not adjust properly to the NL streets. This was in Tahoe at Mont Bleu.

-Mike

Re: Overs buttons
 

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The only time I have ever played with overs buttons was a limit game that became NL w/ overs. Several of us had cash on the table for the NL portion only. I found this extremely profitable since the limit players did not adjust properly to the NL streets. This was in Tahoe at Mont Bleu.

-Mike

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IMO that structure would rock.

Re: Overs buttons
 

Different houese do over different, no doubt.

The only time I ever played with overs was at Arizona Charlies Decatur. It is a 4/8 game with 1/2 blinds.

If the street starts heads up, it is NL.

At Fiesta, they played 3/6 with overs a few times, and it went to NL with any number of players, so long as 100% of the players still in the hand when the street started had the overs buttons.

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I generally wouldn't recommend playing overs because its usually not to the players advantage - unless you feel like gambling.


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This is way way way untrue. You get to make decisions for larger amounts of money than normal against players whom you supposedly make better decisions than.

OP: tend to go further with drawing hands - for instance a gutshot on the turn when you are only getting 9:1

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I used to feel the same as you Donkey, but the more brain power I put into this the less I like the idea of playing overs (I have never been in a situation where overs button is permitted so I admit I have no real world application). Standard situation hero raises preflop, 2 callers one of whom has an overs button. 7.5 SB to the flop. Hero bets, middle player folds and now the overs kick in. If the stakes were 5/10 and the agreement was to double the stakes the effective pot size is now 4.5/1. You now are restricted in some of your actions. Its even more magnifided when the overs are HU and there was no pre-flop raise, it might be in the neighborhood of a 1.5:1 pot size at most.

Please show some applied examples where playing overs allows additional advantages, I could be thinking incorrectly and I'm open minded.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Slavic used to be more up on the overs deal. They play overs all the time where I play. It does benefit better players. More-so if their are alot of player playing overs. Much less so if there's only maybe 3 players doing it. Especially if its double the limit. They usually play only 1/2 limit higher. 20-40 with 30-60 overs.

To really take advantage, you have to realize when it will likely be an overs situation postflop or when you can make it a likely overs situation. Most players don't make adjustments for overs, they just like playing with more possible money. Some people it's a penis extension.

Sometimes they'll play with 40-80 overs. Which, if enough people are playing overs, makes it almost a mini blind situation. Which also can really suck if the majority of them are playing overs. In fact, if you're the only one not with an overs button, if it's a double limit overs, you may want to find a different game. But the more players that are playing overs with you, the better since it gives you more potential opportunities to play more hands. The more hands the better player gets to play, the more he can earn.

b

Re: Overs buttons
 

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The only time I have ever played with overs buttons was a limit game that became NL w/ overs. Several of us had cash on the table for the NL portion only. I found this extremely profitable since the limit players did not adjust properly to the NL streets. This was in Tahoe at Mont Bleu.

-Mike

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The only time I'd ever seen overs buttons (the Grand Sierra Resort in Reno) it was the same way - it became NL when all the non-overs were out of the hand.

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I regularly play in 15/30 game, which has overs to 30/60, and it's extremely profitable. It's especially good if there are about 5-6 players with them and sveral of them are loose. In a nutshell, it's implied odds.
Also, you can manipulate the pot size on turn(and flop) for your opponents to make TOP mistakes re: pot odds with holdings like OESD. This is especially true in medium sized 3 way pots.

Also, a tool to isolate bad players.

A note for our game, you don't have to bet overs if any street starts with only overs players. Also,you can bet overs on flop and then go back to regular on turn

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The only time I have ever played with overs buttons was a limit game that became NL w/ overs. Several of us had cash on the table for the NL portion only. I found this extremely profitable since the limit players did not adjust properly to the NL streets. This was in Tahoe at Mont Bleu.

-Mike

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THAT I can see as being an advantageous structure.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Slavic used to be more up on the overs deal. They play overs all the time where I play. It does benefit better players. More-so if their are alot of player playing overs. Much less so if there's only maybe 3 players doing it. Especially if its double the limit. They usually play only 1/2 limit higher. 20-40 with 30-60 overs.

To really take advantage, you have to realize when it will likely be an overs situation postflop or when you can make it a likely overs situation. Most players don't make adjustments for overs, they just like playing with more possible money. Some people it's a penis extension.

Sometimes they'll play with 40-80 overs. Which, if enough people are playing overs, makes it almost a mini blind situation. Which also can really suck if the majority of them are playing overs. In fact, if you're the only one not with an overs button, if it's a double limit overs, you may want to find a different game. But the more players that are playing overs with you, the better since it gives you more potential opportunities to play more hands. The more hands the better player gets to play, the more he can earn.

b

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Great insight. The only time I knew of overs being permitted I was a total neophyte and they only permitted two overs buttons in the game. a 1/2 limit overs structure I like, and I also like the NL overs structure. Its when the structure is 2x the limit that I have a hard time accepting as being truly advantageous, but I can see how it might be good if 4 or so players all had overs buttons.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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A note for our game, you don't have to bet overs if any street starts with only overs players.

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Seems kinda stupid to have overs if this is how they play it.

Can you raise overs if an overs player bets into you using the normal limit? Or does that now dictate the whole street?

b

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Bernie, it just allows you the flexibility of keeping the pot small or building a pot. Yes, if someone bets normal($30) on the turn, you can raise $60 to $90. Once it hits overs on that street it must stay overs betting, but on the following street you could theoretically make the regular bet again.

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Your argument against overs seems to be: "the pot size becomes smaller in relation to the bets" which you conclude leads to less advantage in our decisions. Do I understand you right? If so you have it exactly backwards and I can't think of any way that isn't the case. Your opponents' mistakes are larger in smaller pots, so when you get to play with them in smaller pots at double the stakes, their decisions become more meaningful and so do yours. As the game gets more and more like NL, the decisions are everything - that's why good players have a larger advantage in NL than limit.

-DeathDonkey

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Your argument against overs seems to be: "the pot size becomes smaller in relation to the bets" which you conclude leads to less advantage in our decisions.

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Greater advantage in decisions, but also greater commitment to win a smaller pot. It seems as if loose and aggressive players have a greater advantage in this situation (again assuming a 2x overs), or do you disagree? Can you give some hand examples in a 2x overs situation to help convey your POV to me? I have a very open mind about this, its a concept that has always been troubling to me.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Overs buttons
 

"greater commitment to win a smaller pot"

I think you are saying "I have to risk more dollars in every pot" which is true, overs buttons make the game a higher stakes game, but you don't risk more in BB's (if you think of BB's as BB's at the larger limit, the over limit) than normal. I don't see why loose aggressive players would have a greater advantage in your mind, I think you are saying because they are more willing to risk their dollars, but that's not the case at all - just like any other poker game, a tight aggressive strategy is best, though you do have to pay attention to special situations where your odds are not what you might expect.

Examples? fish has middle pair, you have top pair, on the turn/river you bet (a double bet because you both have overs buttons) and get called down - you win twice as much money as normal. Fish's mistakes are amplified and you get him to put more dollars into a pot as a big dog.

An example I gave already where strategy comes into play is getting only 9:1 on the turn with a gutshot vs a guy with an overs button might push the implied odds to a call. Likewise, when you have a bluff catcher type of hand and a draw gets in, you have to remember what your true odds are when the guy bets the river - a payoff you might think of as automatic might not be if you are only getting like 4:1 instead of 8:1.

Final example, you have an overpair, flop is two-tone. You are playing NL or overs to NL, you push all in for 2x the pot, fish calls with a naked flush draw - you are very happy to get that much money in the pot as a decent favorite. You have the appropriate bankroll to tolerate the times he hits his flush. This is all overs buttons are to a lesser extent (2x limit I mean).

-DeathDonkey

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This thread reminds me a bit of the old arguments about what required more skill NL or limit. By now, however, its become pretty clear even to us stubborn limit folk that more decisions means skill/luck ratio increases.

That's why its good to consider donking flops. That's why its good to consider 3betting a bunch pf. That's why its good to consider bluff bet/3betting the turn. etc.

It's also why NL requires more skill and why limit with overs (particularly in the structure bdaddy mentioned) requires more skill.

But when I play live, I usually just wanna chill, eat, joke around, and play the same easy, mellow poker I've played 100ks of internet hands of. So I usually decline overs, admitting some small decrease in profit if I knew what to do with them.

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It's also why NL requires more skill and why limit with overs (particularly in the structure bdaddy mentioned) requires more skill.

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Not sure it requires more skill as much as it rewards more skill.

b