Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

This is a hand from the Stars 162. Somebody sent it to me, and my first question was why he did not reraise preflop and his response was that he felt RR'ing in this spot is really bad and that he flats here virtually always. My feelings were that vs. the bad players that frequent the 162 I'm usually trying to induce them into making a big mistake as they are not playing optimally preflop(or even very well) as well just trying to get value from my hand.

It's pretty important to notice OR's stack size as well. What are your thoughts and what would you say is your general % of reraising vs. flatting. Thanks

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO (t5380)
Hero (t2815)
SB (t4290)
BB (t2735)
UTG (t2520)
UTG+1 (t2835)
MP1 (t2845)
MP2 (t1495)
MP3 (t2085)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t120</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t120, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

15 views 0 responses = [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I know this thread isn't interesting but still: [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

in this hand i def 3 bet. 4x usually a sign of a strength

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

i think i flat AA here most of the time, im never going to berate someone that repops AA here but i think i flat hands that are folding the flop enough to be flatting hands that i wont fold on the flop, if you dont set mine here and therefore never flat call here then repopping is for sure better, but if you're playing against the player rather than what you're likely to do then repop for sure

i think the worst is reraising expecting them to flat, maybe its me but i think you put most villians to a shove or fold decision and flatting will make them make worse decisions, that might be hero depenant though

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

Matt,

I literally am 50/50 in this situation. There are some players who with this stack size will never fold after raising 4x, and others who will fold pre to a reraise but never fold the flop if they get any piece and always cbet if they are able to. With no reads, I will call half the time and rr the other half, simple as that.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

call

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

just make it 360 he'll stack off with most hands he is x4 raising here.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

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just make it 360 he'll stack off with most hands he is x4 raising here.

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Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

Your friend has a bad understanding of poker, saying that reraising is flat out bad is simply ridiculous. If you wanna call be my guest, but reraising is obviously completely fine and standard and it's what I would do the LARGE majority of the time against a typical random opponent.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

Vs almost anyone this deep im raising to about 400 about 90% of the time in this particular spot.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

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just make it 360 he'll stack off with most hands he is x4 raising here.

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yea, i'd wager that given his stack and pf raise you're getting it all a lot more often if you re-pop here than flatting

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

i don't understand the assumption "well, he 4x'd, therefore he is gonna stack off almost always" - on what basis do you guys make this assumption? i would expect villain to fold to our raise at least 75% of the time if not more - am i way off? seems like i used the thinking "well he's 4xing it he is def coming along for his whole stack" about 3 months ago, never got any action when i reraised 4xers, and completely abandoned that line of thinking

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

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just make it 360 he'll stack off with most hands he is x4 raising here.

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Just reraise preflop. I don't know if villain stacks off, but he almost always calls the reraise when he 4xs it. You need to reraise and build the pot.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

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just make it 360 he'll stack off with most hands he is x4 raising here.

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Just reraise preflop. I don't know if villain stacks off, but he almost always calls the reraise when he 4xs it. You need to reraise and build the pot.

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what's the point of building the pot? villain has ~5 PSBs left with three streets of action left, i don't see "building the pot" as a valid reason to reraise

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

I reraise here even though it's higher variance because it makes the hand a lot easier to play. If he shoves, yay! If he even just calls and then checks the flop, I think we are bet/calling a shove on any flop except maybe KQJ. However if we call behind, raise his flop bet and then he shoves, we are put in a tough spot because we haven't defined our hand very well.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

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I reraise here even though it's higher variance because it makes the hand a lot easier to play. If he shoves, yay! If he even just calls and then checks the flop, I think we are bet/calling a shove on any flop except maybe KQJ. However if we call behind, raise his flop bet and then he shoves, we are put in a tough spot because we haven't defined our hand very well.

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I don't see how reraising is higher variance. If you reraise, you often win a medium sized pot when villain folds preflop, on the flop, or on the turn.

If you flat call, you usually get stacked by hands that are ahead of you (as happens whne you reraise and are called). Sometimes you win a big pot, but often you just get a cbet if villain misses.

KQJ is not that bad a flop for AA and I wouldn't fold it unless the preflop action strongly indicated villain has a big pair. Villain could easily give you action with hands you are ahead of. If you are behind, you have tons of outs to make top set, broadway, or aces up, and sometimes a nut flush.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

445,500 games 0.016 secs 27,843,750 games/sec

Board: Ks Qh Jd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.865% 62.51% 03.36% 278472 14958.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 34.135% 30.78% 03.36% 137112 14958.00 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }


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Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

This thread is retardo, sorry. Gee someone random raised and we have AA, what do we do? Cmon.

Also betgo your analysis against the KQJ flop is a bit silly because ok even if they have 77, 88, A9s they are almost always going to just check fold those hands, or at least they are very unlikely to try bluffing with them. The real question is what are they actually putting money in the pot with after that flop. Okay I'm not saying you shouldn't play the hand past the flop, but seems like just calculating the odds against their entire range doesn't make much sense.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

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This thread is retardo, sorry. Gee someone random raised and we have AA, what do we do? Cmon.

Also betgo your analysis against the KQJ flop is a bit silly because ok even if they have 77, 88, A9s they are almost always going to just check fold those hands, or at least they are very unlikely to try bluffing with them. The real question is what are they actually putting money in the pot with after that flop. Okay I'm not saying you shouldn't play the hand past the flop, but seems like just calculating the odds against their entire range doesn't make much sense.

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Let's take out the hands that miss the KQJ flop and you are still ahead. You are 38% against KQo for top two pair and 21% against KK. The point is by the time you cbet and are checkraised, you have odds to play for your stack. A lot of the hands you get action for are like AK/AQ for pair a gutshot and you are a big favorite over those.


Board: Ks Qh Jd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.129% 49.50% 04.63% 144072 13474.50 { AA }
Hand 1: 45.871% 41.24% 04.63% 120039 13474.50 { JJ+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }


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Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

41,580 games 0.005 secs 8,316,000 games/sec

Board: Ks Qh Jd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.980% 37.58% 00.40% 15624 168.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 62.020% 61.62% 00.40% 25620 168.00 { KQo }

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

You honestly think AQ and AJ are check raising you here? Maybe sometimes, but I'd say most of the time they don't.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

I use this line against a random, possibly Sat qualifier in the 162.

I'm reraising 80% of the time to 2 - 2.5 x only because will get called often enough.

If I reraise:
Non-scarry flops will make weakish looking CB to induce a raise (again this just seems to work often enough)
Due to his stack this will most likely mean going all the way with hand if reraised.

On scarry flops, will try to bet strong and define where I am. If board is super drawy may go with it anyway (is this spew?).


If calling:
will CR non scary flops.

Will lead out scary (pot size) flops (KQJ as mentioned, all spades, 567 off, etc.) and make a decision if they push.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

I say reraising AA is higher variance b/c you are more likely to get involved in a very large pot than if you just flat-call. If we flat call, we're going to raise most c-bets and bet most flops when checked to, and that will usually result in a fold and a smaller pot. Most of the time we will make more chips this way. If we reraise pf we will mostly win fewer chips but occasionally win way more chips.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

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I say reraising AA is higher variance b/c you are more likely to get involved in a very large pot than if you just flat-call. If we flat call, we're going to raise most c-bets and bet most flops when checked to, and that will usually result in a fold and a smaller pot. Most of the time we will make more chips this way. If we reraise pf we will mostly win fewer chips but occasionally win way more chips.

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Yeh, well I guess reraising is always higher variance. That comment makes more sense with AQ, JJ, 98s or something. With AA, you increase your variance, but also increase your expectation considerably.

When the guy 4x it, particularly early with deep money, he often has a big ace or medium pp. So if you reraise, his action is waited towards calling or 4-betting rather than folding. Also, it is unlikely someone else will reraise here if you call. So this is just a bad situation to flat call and trap with aces.

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

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I say reraising AA is higher variance b/c you are more likely to get involved in a very large pot than if you just flat-call. If we flat call, we're going to raise most c-bets and bet most flops when checked to, and that will usually result in a fold and a smaller pot. Most of the time we will make more chips this way. If we reraise pf we will mostly win fewer chips but occasionally win way more chips.

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since when is variance a concern? And i dont even think what you said is close to true.
I think the 4x tell on stars is pretty big and a RR to 360 should get the job done here

Re: Random Preflop Frequencies Question
 

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I use this line against a random, possibly Sat qualifier in the 162.

I'm reraising 80% of the time to 2 - 2.5 x only because will get called often enough.

If I reraise:
Non-scarry flops will make weakish looking CB to induce a raise (again this just seems to work often enough)
Due to his stack this will most likely mean going all the way with hand if reraised.

On scarry flops, will try to bet strong and define where I am. If board is super drawy may go with it anyway (is this spew?).


If calling:
will CR non scary flops.

Will lead out scary (pot size) flops (KQJ as mentioned, all spades, 567 off, etc.) and make a decision if they push.

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CORRECTION:
Tought we were in BB for some reason. Will still raise 80% ofthe time, with additional reason of
not letting blinds in. Will follow same logic as above but in position:

If I reraised make CB if checked to and reraise if bet into on non-scarry board.
If scarry, bet strong if checked to and reraise if bet into if we decide we are good (as above).