AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

Opponent is 20/15. I've been playing pretty straightforward TAG ... 3 betting a fair amount, but not too crazy. Those that play with me know what I mean.

I can't say much more right here ... if there's more specific history with the opponent, I can't remember it.

Let's just hear thoughts on the hand thus far ... what do you think about preflop and flop?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG ($298.15)
<font color="#C00000">MP ($422.85)</font>
CO ($238.95)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($364.65)</font>
SB ($38.40)
BB ($92.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $26</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $72</font>, Hero calls $46.

Flop: ($147) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets $88</font>, Hero ...

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

Call flop and re-evaluate turn. Raising will let villan play perfect and only a hand that is killing us is calling a raise. To be honest, I'm pushing all blank turns.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

I think call is pretty standard but what do we do when he shoves turn???

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

not a fan of calling his PF 4-bet but i guesss youre fairly deep and have pos, so whatever.

flop looks like easy call. KK and QQ are a huge part of his range so no sense raising and letting him get away easily. any idea if he would 3 bet push any hand you beat?

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

QQ and KK betting this flop sucks, I dunno if Villain would do that

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

Well I did call, turn is a T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he pushed, $205 to me in a $323 pot. What do you all think. I'll hear thoughts on all streets of course.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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I think call is pretty standard but what do we do when he shoves turn???

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Insta call. If he has A-A, we will shoot ourselves. If he has J-J, make a note. If he has A-J, buddylist. This isn't a hand that I'm getting away from based on pf action. I can't really fathom folding this hand on a blank turn. If a Q falls, then I'm prob folding.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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QQ and KK betting this flop sucks, I dunno if Villain would do that

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Would you bet 10-10 or Q-Q if villan checked to you?

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

no, not in a 4-bet flop.. I dunno how we can speak of AJ and hands like that against a 20/15 4-bet pre.. I think i'd fold pf.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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Well I did call, turn is a T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he pushed, $205 to me in a $323 pot. What do you all think. I'll hear thoughts on all streets of course.

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The 10 doesn't really change anything. It's just hard to see what we are beating here, but I'm not laying this hand down. We don't beat much, but I can't see what he is holding that beats us. A-A (pretty unlikely), J-J (if villan is uber aggressive pf, it's possible, but I don't see a 20/15 4 betting this hand when deep), 10-10 (same as above), A-10 and A-J (unless villan is a idiot, I can't see him holding this). I call expecting to chop the pot with A-K or stacking a badly played K-K or Q-Q.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

you're getting ~2:1 as a 40:60 dog against a QQ+ AKs, AKo. if he's willing to 4-bet lighter it's closer but you're still dumping the flop when you miss given your read so calling sux since you won't get to see five cards everytime.

call flop, what else?

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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Well I did call, turn is a T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he pushed, $205 to me in a $323 pot. What do you all think. I'll hear thoughts on all streets of course.

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I would fold the turn.. seems like AA/JJ

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

Ok, let's settle on PF? Who folds this? You only know that he's 20/15 over 100 hands and you've been 3 betting a fairly wide range but not been 4 bet much or at all in the session

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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you're getting ~2:1 as a 40:60 dog against a QQ+ AKs, AKo. if he's willing to 4-bet lighter it's closer but you're still dumping the flop when you miss given your read so calling sux since you won't get to see five cards everytime.

call flop, what else?

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I agree with PF, I would much rather push than call a 4 bet.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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Well I did call, turn is a T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he pushed, $205 to me in a $323 pot. What do you all think. I'll hear thoughts on all streets of course.

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I would fold the turn.. seems like AA/JJ

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Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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Ok, let's settle on PF? Who folds this? You only know that he's 20/15 over 100 hands and you've been 3 betting a fairly wide range but not been 4 bet much or at all in the session

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I just don't like calling bc your not making money most times if you hit. I prefer pushing to calling pf to see all 5 cards, especially when it's suited. Granted, pushes will usually be called by hands that dominate us, but with games so aggressive these days, I see J-J, 10-10, A-Q calling.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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Well I did call, turn is a T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he pushed, $205 to me in a $323 pot. What do you all think. I'll hear thoughts on all streets of course.

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I would fold the turn.. seems like AA/JJ

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What % of his range would you say is some dicking around hand?

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

Rotterdaum,

Once i flop TPTK w/ AK in a four bet flop, I am not looking to fold. Especially on this board--it could get much worse for AKs.

I am not sure how much it matters what you do. If he has AA/JJ, he is probably going to stack you. If he has AK--chop, chop, chopper style.

If he has QQ/KK/AQ or some suited connector he decided to get fancy with, he is going to be hard pressed to put any more money in the pot.

You could minraise the flop to induce a bluff/represent a silly bluff. I dunno, i don't think there is too much you can do here.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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Ok, let's settle on PF? Who folds this? You only know that he's 20/15 over 100 hands and you've been 3 betting a fairly wide range but not been 4 bet much or at all in the session

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I just don't like calling bc your not making money most times if you hit. I prefer pushing to calling pf to see all 5 cards, especially when it's suited. Granted, pushes will usually be called by hands that dominate us, but with games so aggressive these days, I see J-J, 10-10, A-Q calling.

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I really don't see anything other than AA,KK, maybe AK calling a push pre ... would it be a goood push given this?

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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Well I did call, turn is a T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and he pushed, $205 to me in a $323 pot. What do you all think. I'll hear thoughts on all streets of course.

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I would fold the turn.. seems like AA/JJ

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Granted we don't know villan, but does a 20/15 ever 4 bet J-J this deep? Most are calling pf, but he could be a hybrid TAG bred in the jungles of Finland. OP has stated that he hasn't been crazy this session, so I'm assuming villan will not think he is getting out of line.

If it comes A-2-2-3, are you still folding? I'm just trying to

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

So then you guys are saying this hand is meaningless because the defining mistake was made preflop? Is this final?

Is fold better than call preflop?

It's only 46 to me with 360 effective. I think a call can be ok here.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

I fold PF because it sucks hard when you do hit and still arent sure if you should get your stack in. And 20/15s just dont 4-bet that light, so youre usually either a huge dog, or not getting paid off when you make a hand.

i would prefer calling with 22 or 78s over AKo

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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So then you guys are saying this hand is meaningless because the defining mistake was made preflop? Is this final?

Is fold better than call preflop?

It's only 46 to me with 360 effective. I think a call can be ok here.

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Rotterdaum,

I don't necessarily think you made a mistake by just calling preflop. I just don't understand why you would call a four bet, hit TPTK and then start looking for a fold.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

I want to see if people can make a case for a raise, or a fold on the flop or a fold on turn ...

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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Ok, let's settle on PF? Who folds this? You only know that he's 20/15 over 100 hands and you've been 3 betting a fairly wide range but not been 4 bet much or at all in the session

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I just don't like calling bc your not making money most times if you hit. I prefer pushing to calling pf to see all 5 cards, especially when it's suited. Granted, pushes will usually be called by hands that dominate us, but with games so aggressive these days, I see J-J, 10-10, A-Q calling.

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I really don't see anything other than AA,KK, maybe AK calling a push pre ... would it be a goood push given this?

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Are you serious? If he is folding everything, but those hands, just run the numbers. I'm too lazy, but I believe pushing is still +EV.

I don't think pf is horrible, I just prefer a different line. But if I'm calling, I can't fathom getting away from it on this board.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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Ok, let's settle on PF? Who folds this? You only know that he's 20/15 over 100 hands and you've been 3 betting a fairly wide range but not been 4 bet much or at all in the session

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I just don't like calling bc your not making money most times if you hit. I prefer pushing to calling pf to see all 5 cards, especially when it's suited. Granted, pushes will usually be called by hands that dominate us, but with games so aggressive these days, I see J-J, 10-10, A-Q calling.

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any read, history, tilt? otherwise we're pissing in the dark. if there isn't any i'd just fold giving him a range of QQ+ AKs, AKo. if he's 4betting lighter i push.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

A call if fine if you think villain will put in more money with an underpair on the flop.

Turn is vvvclose I think. One one hand it seems like he's never pushing KK/QQ here an on the other we're getting over 2:1. So I fold? I guess...

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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I fold PF because it sucks hard when you do hit and still arent sure if you should get your stack in. And 20/15s just dont 4-bet that light, so youre usually either a huge dog, or not getting paid off when you make a hand.

i would prefer calling with 22 or 78s over AKo

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Well, first it's AKs, second, calling with 22 or 78s preflop is beyond horrible, are you serious?

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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So then you guys are saying this hand is meaningless because the defining mistake was made preflop? Is this final?

Is fold better than call preflop?

It's only 46 to me with 360 effective. I think a call can be ok here.

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Rotterdaum,

I don't necessarily think you made a mistake by just calling preflop. I just don't understand why you would call a four bet, hit TPTK and then start looking for a fold.

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That's basically what I'm saying. If your calling, you can't really get away from it unless the board is like A-Q-J.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

as played i would fold the turn. you called a PF 4-bet so he knows youre in the uppermost part of your range, and then you show even more strength by calling his flop bet.
it looks like he puts you on exactly AK and doesnt think you will fold.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

The thing is, there was no 4 betting history with a villain but I thought about 20% of his range could be a random hand he's playing back at me with... I thought the 4 bet was smallish for a real hand.

Basically if his range is QQ, KK, AA, AK, random hand, and he's possibly calling a push with anything but the random hand ... can calling be better than pushing or folding?

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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I want to see if people can make a case for a raise, or a fold on the flop or a fold on turn ...

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I haven't played with you for a very long time, but I remember that you were very aggresive and got under people's skin. If you raise, even if your frustrating me, I'm not calling with an underpair on the flop. Folding the turn makes sense depending on the card. In this case, the 10 changed nothing. Do you think your good here? I think you are good enough based on the action to call this.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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Well, first it's AKs, second, calling with 22 or 78s preflop is beyond horrible, are you serious?

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ya, i know, its terrible. but
my point is that i hate calling PF because his range is so narrow that we are very likely to be dominated. if flop came K33 are you stacking off?
and when we miss we have almost no fold equity.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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as played i would fold the turn. you called a PF 4-bet so he knows youre in the uppermost part of your range, and then you show even more strength by calling his flop bet.
it looks like he puts you on exactly AK and doesnt think you will fold.

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I think this is an interesting line of thought. Sure AK got all it needed, but you basically need him to be bluffing a very large % of the time to call the turn, and is that really imaginable?

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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as played i would fold the turn. you called a PF 4-bet so he knows youre in the uppermost part of your range, and then you show even more strength by calling his flop bet.
it looks like he puts you on exactly AK and doesnt think you will fold.

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I think this is an interesting line of thought. Sure AK got all it needed, but you basically need him to be bluffing a very large % of the time to call the turn, and is that really imaginable?

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What does he have that is beating us that makes sense? Only A-A and I think that's seeing monsters under the bed. J-J is hard bc I don't see 20/15 doing this unless they are frustrated and steaming, especially when deep. Make your read and go with it. I don't think anyone can fault you for folding or calling here; it's pretty close. I just prefer calling based on what I said earlier. Results?

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

I think shoving pf this deep is pretty bad. 4 bets by solid players are AA/KK/AK/bluffs the majority of the time. Your typical 2p2er knows that 4 betting JJ/QQ is not a good play, especially this deep. I'm not sure how crazy I am about calling here preflop either, but I suppose it's a viable option.

On the flop, it's a pretty standard shove I think. If he is bluffing, he would have to be retarded to even think about bluffing the turn. If he is bluffing he might have up to 4 outs, and it would be a shame to lose to a turned set/gutshot or something 200bbs deep when there was no reason to just call to induce a bluff since there is no way he is going to bluff the turn unimproved anyways.

Basically, if he has you beat on the flop you're going to go broke anyhow. If he has like some random hand like 33/44 or KQ or some bs he will shut down 99% of the time unimproved, so all you are doing by calling is giving him a card to outdraw you in a massive pot.

Cliff notes:

1.Shove flop
2.????
3. Profit

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

i don't think he 4-bets and folds to a push ever considering your read so far, so if we think we're ahead of his range i.e. he's 4-betting somewhat light and will call a push with these, we'd like to see five cards, so a push is better than a call imo.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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as played i would fold the turn. you called a PF 4-bet so he knows youre in the uppermost part of your range, and then you show even more strength by calling his flop bet.
it looks like he puts you on exactly AK and doesnt think you will fold.

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I think this is an interesting line of thought. Sure AK got all it needed, but you basically need him to be bluffing a very large % of the time to call the turn, and is that really imaginable?

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no, im saying he cant ever expect you to fold the turn after you call the flop, so hes almost never bluffing.
and i thinkk even if villain has AK he checks that turn. it would be much better for him to give you a shot to bluff (however unlikely that is) than to push into youre possible AA or JJ, right? becasue even if you check behind he would still be able to easily get all in on the river
so folding turn is correct.

or did i misunderstand you?

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

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I don't see 20/15 doing this unless they are frustrated or steaming.

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Well, that not always true. I run at about 20/15 and when the stacks get deep, I will four bet with more than AA/KK/AKs. In fact, I would be MORE inclined to four bet someone like Rot. This is b/c I already know his three bet range preflop is wide, probably even more so now that the stacks are deeper. Also, against a solid/thinking player, lets be serious, you are going to get a fold almost everytime unless he has AA/KK/AKs---assuming there is no four bet history.

Re: AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular
 

I like aislephive's post ... maybe i'm being resultist here but a push on flop sounds good.

I called the flop and the turn. He had 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ....

and the river was a Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

go figure