I do this from time to time and was told this is spew
 

how bad is this
opponent is 17/15/5 with 50% attempt steal over 100 hands

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: $18.70
BTN: $100.75
SB: $98.80
Hero (BB): $98.50
UTG: $42.75

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG folds, CO calls $1, <font color="red">BTN raises to $5</font>, SB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $17</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $12

Flop: ($35.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $24</font>

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

I don't mind doing this every once in a while. Though I'd prefer my cards to be sooted. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

sure? decent flop to bet.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

Dont like it because hes raising a ~20bb stack pf so his range is not as wide. I general, I feel like this is spew, theres just no reason to repop 96o OOP IMO. Why should you do it?

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

It's better to do this with 96o than with ATo.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dont like it because hes raising a ~20bb stack pf so his range is not as wide. I general, I feel like this is spew, theres just no reason to repop 96o OOP IMO. Why should you do it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably because a tight person who steals 50% of the time is folding a lot to our reraise, and if he calls he might just be set mining vs our obvious AA or KK, so he folds the flop. I like it, as long as you have not been bluffy at the table and have a tight image.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

lol at this being spew

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

for the record I said it was spewy, and I stick by it. It's just not necessary and too fps, especially with this particular hand.

I'm totally fine with it if it's a different hand

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's better to do this with 96o than with ATo.

[/ QUOTE ]

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 25.367% 25.17% 00.19% 320690244 2467764.00 { 96o }
Hand 1: 74.633% 74.44% 00.19% 948328404 2467764.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 26.260% 24.79% 01.47% 244514112 14483466.00 { ATo }
Hand 1: 73.740% 72.27% 01.47% 712806060 14483466.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }

Why? You shouldnt be going broke against this guy on 9xx or Txx flops anyways. (generalized statement)

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dont like it because hes raising a ~20bb stack pf so his range is not as wide. I general, I feel like this is spew, theres just no reason to repop 96o OOP IMO. Why should you do it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably because a tight person who steals 50% of the time is folding a lot to our reraise, and if he calls he might just be set mining vs our obvious AA or KK, so he folds the flop. I like it, as long as you have not been bluffy at the table and have a tight image.

[/ QUOTE ]

sightless isnt a nit, not even close. his range is definitely not AA/KK here.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

Get out of the pokerstove box.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

I can't think of why it is better to do it with 96o than ATo. Please elaborate.

ATo seems to have slightly better equity and since AT holds an ace, it is less likely that he does and more likely he will fold to your 3bet.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

its obv better to have ATo, but we don't always get dealt good hands.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

In a complete vacuum, assuming you have a tight image and given his 50% attempt to steal.
7.5BB in the pot, you are offering him
17+7.5 = 24.5 to 12 or roughly 2:1
If he folds &gt; 33% of his opening range it's profitable even if you play fit/fold on the flop.
33% of his range would be 16.7% or [66+,A5s+,K9s+,Q9s+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QJo] I doubt many villains call 3bets this wide even IP.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
its obv better to have ATo, but we don't always get dealt good hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think this is obvious at all considering that many villains do not fold or 4 bet AJ, AQ, and AK pf

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

If you make it a 4x raise and have that be the last money you put into the pot, it's instantly +EV against this type of player, if used like once per session. If that were the case, we'd obv want 96o instead of ATo. The fact that you cbet this flop obviously changes things though... We'd definitely rather have top pair than no pair. But if you think about it, if you plan on cbetting the flop, does it really matter since he won't call you on this drawless flop with worse than AT? You might as well be bluffing. So in conclusion I think all that matters is how much of his range is worse than AQ/AK/AA/KK, and your hand is irrelevant.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

AT has more value then 96o, stop thinking about only pessimistic scenarios (being dominated in this case). Weigh up the advantages and disadvantages. AT is clearly better then 96o.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

I'll leave it to someone else to do the math for the cbet but I don't think it's spew.
Depends on his calling range ldo and how much of it includes an A.

Edit: blah let's do a quick run:
(1+2/3)X = 1
5/3X = 1
X = 3/5 = 60%

If villain calls &lt; 60% the cbet is autoprofit. 16 hands make up Ax, 6 a pair so with the very simplistic assumption that he'll play on with any A or set and we won't invest any more money he needs a range that consists of &gt; 40% hands that don't fit that discription.

77-QQ;AQ;AJ = 32 Ax hands, 36 pair hands = profitable (for some range that I pulled out of my behind)

So: tl;dr Imo pf3bet is profitable + cbet is profitable = no spew

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
AT has more value then 96o, stop thinking about only pessimistic scenarios (being dominated in this case). Weigh up the advantages and disadvantages. AT is clearly better then 96o.

[/ QUOTE ]

thinking about your kicker isn't pessimistic

and if villain has a pocket pair, you will not stack them with a pair of Aces, but you can stack them w a 2p or str8 from 96

i actually honestly don't know which hand is better in a re raised pot vs various types of villains

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

list the advantages

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is spew
 

I think it is fine to do this occasionally against a guy who is stealing so much. As long as your image is good of course

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is spew
 

if he was not raising a limper i would find this a nobrainer.

once you do the 3bet, i think that is an auto bet...unless his folds to cont bets is really low, but i doubt that if he is 17/15 (well he is not against cont bets much anyway)

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
list the advantages

[/ QUOTE ]

i just did, w/ 96 your 2 pairs are more deceptive and so likelier to stack villain

96 makes more str8 than AT

a pair of Aces w AT in a rred pot is not gonna stack KK-22

i think it really depends upon what hands the villain is willing to stack off with, because usually you're taking the pot down w/o showdown

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

no advantages of AT

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

keikiwai do you think the same if we are in position because I see the following line a lot.
Board Ace, rag, rag
villain checks, hero checks -&gt; hero gets value from TT+ often enough on later streets

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
no advantages of AT

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, i guess if you do a weak enough pfrr to trap then AT is FUCKIGN AWESOM&lt;E!

Poker Stars, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $534.20
keikiwai (MP): $408.85
CO: $348
BTN: $152.55
SB: $852.85
BB: $394

Pre-Flop: 5http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to keikiwai (MP)
UTG folds, <font color="red">keikiwai raises to $16</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $40</font>, 3 folds, keikiwai calls $24

Flop: ($86) Jhttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
keikiwai checks, <font color="red">CO bets $24</font>, <font color="red">keikiwai raises to $140</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $308 and is All-In</font>, keikiwai calls $168

Turn: ($702) 2http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($702) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $702 Pot ($3 Rake)
keikiwai showed 5http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Fives) and LOST (-$348 NET)
CO showed A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Thttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif (a straight, Ten to Ace) and WON $699 (+$351 NET)

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
keikiwai do you think the same if we are in position because I see the following line a lot.
Board Ace, rag, rag
villain checks, hero checks -&gt; hero gets value from TT+ often enough on later streets

[/ QUOTE ]

well, ip is different

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

Guys, if you have ATo in a reraised pot and get all-in on the flop on an A-high board, AT is not going to be the best hand. Thats why I'm saying put the pokerstove away, its not about 5-card equity.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

I like 96s.. 96o loses a little value as a 3bet bluff. But you can't automatically label it a bluff. If it works for you, awesome. In this situation I'd say 69s &gt; ATs &gt; 69o &gt; ATo against the ranges you'll get called with.

C-Bet is standard and necessary... more pairs to be folded out than Ax hands in his range.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, if you have ATo in a reraised pot and get all-in on the flop on an A-high board, AT is not going to be the best hand. Thats why I'm saying put the pokerstove away, its not about 5-card equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is only true for some peoples image, and why these debates are futile

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

How did this thread get so long?

AT vs 96o, who cares, they are both cheese but if metagame says make a move, then make a move. In a vacuum there are better hands to make a move with, of course.

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

96 is better than AT b/c you don't want the hand to go to showdown anyway. if you cbet an A high flop and get called in a 3bet pot, your AT isn't good in most cases. if you won't get called, 96 would have been good enough. plus, when you hold 96, the probability that an A flops and you can take away the pot, is bigger too.

nevertheless, if you're not going to do this too often, why not wait for a suited or more connected hand than 96o?

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

all the 96o arguments in one line: "it's easier to play."

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
all the 96o arguments in one line: "it's easier to play."

[/ QUOTE ]

this thread is stupid w/o more specific examples including reads

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind doing this every once in a while. Though I'd prefer my cards to be sooted. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I do this from time to time and was told this is utter spew
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dont like it because hes raising a ~20bb stack pf so his range is not as wide. I general, I feel like this is spew, theres just no reason to repop 96o OOP IMO. Why should you do it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably because a tight person who steals 50% of the time is folding a lot to our reraise, and if he calls he might just be set mining vs our obvious AA or KK, so he folds the flop. I like it, as long as you have not been bluffy at the table and have a tight image.

[/ QUOTE ]

sightless isnt a nit, not even close. his range is definitely not AA/KK here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats why I said it depends on your image. Bluffy plays like this depend entirely too much on the back and forth of the current game, and how your opponent views you to really be discussed usefully without that information.