I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

I feel stupid about the way I played this hand.

The opponent is 13/8 over less than 40 hands.

I almost always reraise preflop with JJ. Don't ask me where I got 4,000. After I did it, I was like, "WTF, that's basically a min-raise!" I hate min raises and I never do it. If I was going to raise, I think I should have popped it to 5,000 at least.

When he shoved, I just gave him credit for one of the huge pairs and mucked it.

In retrospect, I think calling might have been the right move. There are 7 people yet to act behind us that could potentially wake up with monsters. Furthermore, I think maybe his UTG raise deserved enough respect for me to just call.

As an added bonus, maybe my call encourages a couple more callers. Then I flop a set and win a monster pot. Who knows? I screwed up.

Thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker, NL Hold'em Tournament, 300/600 Blinds, 75 Ante, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: 12,625
Hero (UTG+1): 19,638
MP1: 8,421
MP2: 29,997
CO: 9,424
BTN: 6,342
SB: 10,601
BB: 7,349

Pre-Flop: (1,500) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
<font color="red">UTG raises to 1,800</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to 4,000</font>, 6 folds, <font color="red">UTG raises to 12,550 and is All-In</font>, Hero folds

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

i would probably flatcall here especially as u have noted that he is very tight.
folding to the 4bet shove is good.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

Flat call seems better here because if UTG is strong as he represents JJ is not enough to call

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

Flat call even though 13/8 is only over 40 hands.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

I don't mind the reraise preflop, but your raise size puts you in an awkward spot.

With his stack size, you should decide before you raise if you are willing to put him all in or not.
If yes, reraise him to ~5400 and a call of a 4bet shove by villain is automatic.
If no, just flat call.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

hollywade,

i think this is quite standard, but JJ is really hard to play in these positions, as most ways are only slightly +EV.

Stack sizes make it complicated here.

I think you have to raise, cause with flat-calling you will most times be in a multiway pot and have to mine for a set - but JJ are too strong therefore. I think flat-calling with TT is fine though.

Your reraise ammount is good, as you can lay the hand down against a 4-bet and your stack remains intact. Your stack is much too large to shove this.

And laying down against the 4-bet (against a tight UTG-raise) is of course right.

But as often with JJ it's close.

I like your line most.
Calling and mining for a set might be ok, but you have to be aware of a squeezer behind you.
If villain is a tight straight-forward player also folding is not a bad choice, as you don't loose much value imo.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

I think I'd just flat call here.. but your raise size is fine, IF u wanna fold to a 4-bet.. i wouldn't do it.. as stated, I'd probably either raise an amount that comitts me to call his shove or flat call here.. with JJ against a 13/8 UTG raiser, I don't feel good enough calling a 4-bet.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

if villian is tight youre not gonna make much money out of this hand unless you hit youre set and theres an Ace on the flop or unless villain has overpair to J hi board

so i like a raise
folding to the 4bet is good
and the raise is fine aswell 45000-5000 is better [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I almost always reraise preflop with JJ. Don't ask me where I got 4,000. After I did it, I was like, "WTF, that's basically a min-raise!" I hate min raises and I never do it. If I was going to raise, I think I should have popped it to 5,000 at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the size of the raise you should question, the question is should you haveshoved instead of putting 33% of your stack in.

[ QUOTE ]
When he shoved, I just gave him credit for one of the huge pairs and mucked it.

In retrospect, I think calling might have been the right move. There are 7 people yet to act behind us that could potentially wake up with monsters. Furthermore, I think maybe his UTG raise deserved enough respect for me to just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with calling. As played...AK has to be considered. How has your play been? If we've been as tight as he has, then I consider laying it down. If we've been all over the map I'm more liable to call and race since we now have odds to call against two overs or may well have him 80/20.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

Raising to 1/3 effective stacks &amp; folding (getting over 2:1) is never ever good. Don't do it. Ever. There maybe the very rare exception, but don't do it.
Shoving &amp; raise/calling are not very profitable against his tight range. So flatcall.
As played I probably call because your 36% against QQ+,AK, but just don't ever put yourself in a position when you have to consider folding getting 2:1 preflop (unless a player who hadn't acted before joins in the fun).

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with calling. As played...AK has to be considered. How has your play been? If we've been as tight as he has, then I consider laying it down. If we've been all over the map I'm more liable to call and race since we now have odds to call against two overs or may well have him 80/20.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to be clear, when I said I think I should have called, I meant the initial raise and not the shove. It's possible he could have AK but I really can't see him doing this with 1010, 99, 88, etc.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

I hate this fold because of the odds you're getting. Villian could have AQ/AK or TT here too. Late tourney people do wierd things.

I would flat call the raise IF I was confident the table would fold behind me, or maybe 3 way at worst. That's probably my preferred line.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Late tourney people do wierd things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure this was before the first break. I know it was before the second one. There was a lot of tournament to go.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure this was before the first break.

[/ QUOTE ]

My apologies. It looks like we were a couple hours in. I still wouldn't call it late though. I mean, it was before the money at least.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

Folding to a 4 bet is horrible, you need to have a plan when you 3 bet. Once you make the 3 bet you have to call, if you can't call you need to flat the 1800 and reevaluate on the flop. I agree with Dave D comments.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Folding to a 4 bet is horrible

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you haven't pot committed yourself and are fairly certain you are an 80/20 dog.


[ QUOTE ]
you need to have a plan when you 3 bet

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

i would of called

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

"Not if you haven't pot committed yourself and are fairly certain you are an 80/20 dog."

Why would you 3 bet if you think your a 80/20 dog ?

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you 3 bet if you think your a 80/20 dog ?


[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't. An open raise doesn't automatically mean AA, KK, or QQ. However a 4-bet shove with a fairly deep stack probably does.

I am very confident that I folded the worse hand.

As I said before, I wish I had just called the initial raise.

This is how I rank the different options for playing this hand:

1) Just call the 1,800
2) Do what I actually did
3) Call the 4-bet shove

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

Is open folding preflop an option?

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is open folding preflop an option?


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's an option. I just don't see myself doing it in this situation...ever.

Re: I think I screwed up with these jacks
 

[ QUOTE ]

This is how I rank the different options for playing this hand:

1) Just call the 1,800
2) Do what I actually did
3) Call the 4-bet shove

[/ QUOTE ]

This one time maybe. R/R Shoving is always preferable with jacks to number 90% of the time. Doing what you did is preferable much less if you ask me.