Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa....ap/index.html

Rhodesia under Ian Smith's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYDg3ofh7dM

Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh14N...eature=related

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

Uh yeah, Beautiful Apartheid. Glory, glory.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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Uh yeah, Beautiful Apartheid. Glory, glory.

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Apartheid was in South Africa, not Rhodesia.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Uh yeah, Beautiful Apartheid. Glory, glory.

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Apartheid was in South Africa, not Rhodesia.

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Ok. Beautiful blatantly racist regime supressing a people's right to self-determination. Much different, I'm sure.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

Rhodesia was called the breadbasket of Africa and produced enough food for of southern Africa; Zimbabwe cannot even feed its own people. Average life expectancy in Rhodesia was 60 years; life expectancy in Zimbabwe is 37 years, the lowest in the world.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

So because Ian Smith's successor was one of the brutal dictators in the world is supposed to excuse the fact that he headed a blatantly racist regime that supressed a people's right to self-determination?

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

"Self determination" in that part of the world has always been the whim of the biggest strongman.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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life expectancy in Zimbabwe is 37 years, the lowest in the world.

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In all fairness, this statistic is as much a result of violence as health/nutrition problems.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Uh yeah, Beautiful Apartheid. Glory, glory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apartheid was in South Africa, not Rhodesia.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. Beautiful blatantly racist regime supressing a people's right to self-determination. Much different, I'm sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I don't support neither one of them, but if choosing between the evils I'd say Mugabe is def the worst.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

That's no reason to celebrate Ian Smith.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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That's no reason to celebrate Ian Smith.

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I concur.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

True. Even though the current leader of the nation is an even bigger [censored] that is no excuse for the actions carried out by Ian Smith´s government.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

OK, to clear a couple of things up.

The biggest decline in life expectancy is overwhelmingly down to aids. If you look at all the countries in that region, tehy've all seen a drop of 15-20 years in a similar period, so I wouldn't read too much into that.

Secondly, its not justa bout the right to vote, self-determination etc, as if the Rhodesian government was just carrying on peacefully but with no rights for blacks. Their was a brutal civil war, with major atrocieties carried out admittedly by both sides.

And mugabe's not great, but if he hadn't picked on a few white farmers who directly fund conservative lobbies in the UK, no one would have heard of him.

I'm not excusing him, but their are a lot worse dictators in africa who get much more support, so people need to wonder why he gets singled out.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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mugabe's not great,

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Controversial.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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mugabe's not great,

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Controversial.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were the other 4737 posts as interesting and as insightful as this one?

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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And mugabe's not great, but if he hadn't picked on a few white farmers who directly fund conservative lobbies in the UK, no one would have heard of him.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah no one would have heard that the Zimbabwean economy was in shambles or that horrible political oppression was going on there by a dictator.

Ian Smith was a symbol of what was wrong in Zimbabwe years ago, and Robert Mugabe is a symbol of what's wrong there now.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

There's a lot of othe dictators in Africa who are as bad or worse, without resorting to google/wikipedia I doubt you can name 3 of them...

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


mugabe's not great,

[/ QUOTE ]

Controversial.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were the other 4737 posts as interesting and as insightful as this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of them even more so if that's possible to believe.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

i always wonder if mugabe has seen the last king of scotland

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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i always wonder if mugabe has seen the last king of scotland

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As he met the original frequently, I doubt he had to rely on a couple of hollywood films for all his knowledge on african politics...

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa....ap/index.html

Rhodesia under Ian Smith's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYDg3ofh7dM

Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh14N...eature=related

[/ QUOTE ]

Mugabe came into power because of people Like Ian Smith.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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There's a lot of othe dictators in Africa who are as bad or worse, without resorting to google/wikipedia I doubt you can name 3 of them...

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That still doesnt change the fact that Mugabe is a piece of [censored].

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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There's a lot of othe dictators in Africa who are as bad or worse, without resorting to google/wikipedia I doubt you can name 3 of them...

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That still doesnt change the fact that Mugabe is a piece of [censored].

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No... but it is useful to understand why he has the support he does from other african leaders, especially south africa.

Also, I think the point remains that if people exclusively single out mugabe over people who are worse, you have to question why. I think alot of the time it is simple racism, where he gets singled out for what he did to the white farmers, where other african leaders get ignored because they are just oppressing other blacks...

I'm not saying the comments on here are of that sort, but are perhaps in response to biased media coverage and deliberate and effective campaigning by the white farmers political union.

Finally, 1 line comments about a complex situation add nothing.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

Im all for more media coverage of Africa and its leaders, whether they are tyrants or not. That more people are aware of Mugabe than other African leaders is true, and that might come from the reports of his treatments of white farmers.

Obviously Mugabe did not take over a perfect system, and cannot do miracles, but his leadership and how he is misleading his country is still despicable, even though there might be worse leaders out there.

And this thread was about Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, it was not a "rank the 10 worst African leaders". I think we all agree that the current black leader and the previous white leader of that nation both are/were garbage, while there might have been other white former colonist leaders in other African nations worse that Ian Smith he still was a terrible leader.

Do you find it problematic that I hate the way Ian Smith governed Rhodesia even though other white leaders in other areas of Africa might have been even worse? Hey maybe for him it even made sense to govern the way he did, and quite possibly he believed he did a noble thing.

And I do choose to judge Mugabe based on his actions, not on his popularity among other African leaders or nations.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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[ QUOTE ]
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa....ap/index.html

Rhodesia under Ian Smith's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYDg3ofh7dM

Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh14N...eature=related

[/ QUOTE ]

Mugabe came into power because of people Like Ian Smith.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you explain the existence of similar regimes/dictators/strongmen around the world and throughout history? Ian Smith too?

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa....ap/index.html

Rhodesia under Ian Smith's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYDg3ofh7dM

Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh14N...eature=related

[/ QUOTE ]

Mugabe came into power because of people like Ian Smith.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you explain the existence of similar regimes/dictators/strongmen around the world and throughout history? Ian Smith too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa....ap/index.html

Rhodesia under Ian Smith's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYDg3ofh7dM

Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh14N...eature=related

[/ QUOTE ]

Mugabe came into power because of people like Ian Smith.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you explain the existence of similar regimes/dictators/strongmen around the world and throughout history? Ian Smith too?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

And just to be clear, yes, repressive and brutal dictators often follow moderately (in hindsight) repressive regimes. The Ba'th party in Iraq came into power after the monarchy set up by the British, the communists in the USSR followed the rule of the last Czar, Castro in Cuba.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa....ap/index.html

Rhodesia under Ian Smith's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYDg3ofh7dM

Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe's rule:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh14N...eature=related

[/ QUOTE ]

Mugabe came into power because of people Like Ian Smith.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you explain the existence of similar regimes/dictators/strongmen around the world and throughout history? Ian Smith too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you being obtuse here?

"similar regimes/dictators/strongmen" around the world are caused by lots of different things, some of which are the regimes which preceded them... the existance of other bad guys not caused by ian smith doesn't stop us being able to put him down as one of the causes for mugabe...

I'm really suprised you and at least one other thought this was a good argument.

Its like saying that the russian revolution coulnt have been caused in part by WW1 because other revolutions happened later when the war wasnt happeing...

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

Not being obtuse. It's the generalization I object to, not the specific case that Smith may have caused Mugabe. That said, I don't think it's shown that Smith caused Mugabe.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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It's the generalization I object to

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What generalization, that repressive regimes have negative effects many years after they are out of power?

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That said, I don't think it's shown that Smith caused Mugabe.

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Mugabe built his reputation and popularity fighting against the minority government, considering Smith was the face of that government for 15 years, you would be pretty hard pressed to come up with any argument whereby Smith didn't play an extremely important role in Mugabe's rise to power and the limited options of Blacks in the first mixed elections.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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life expectancy in Zimbabwe is 37 years, the lowest in the world.

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In all fairness, this statistic is as much a result of violence as health/nutrition problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice!

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

Jammy,

WOW! Didn't actually think Mugabe apologists existed?

Learn something new every day.

Not liking murdering filth makes people racists. OK makes sense.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

Who is a Mugabe apologist?

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, to clear a couple of things up.

The biggest decline in life expectancy is overwhelmingly down to aids. If you look at all the countries in that region, tehy've all seen a drop of 15-20 years in a similar period, so I wouldn't read too much into that.

Secondly, its not justa bout the right to vote, self-determination etc, as if the Rhodesian government was just carrying on peacefully but with no rights for blacks. Their was a brutal civil war, with major atrocieties carried out admittedly by both sides.

And mugabe's not great, but if he hadn't picked on a few white farmers who directly fund conservative lobbies in the UK, no one would have heard of him.

I'm not excusing him, but their are a lot worse dictators in africa who get much more support, so people need to wonder why he gets singled out.

[/ QUOTE ]

People have heard of Mugabe because he destroyed the second wealthiest country in Africa. Nobody talks about the other dictators because they ruled over countries that were already stuck in the dark ages. Mugabe inherited a country with first world infrastructure (built by whom?), and he flushed it down the toilet.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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True. Even though the current leader of the nation is an even bigger [censored] that is no excuse for the actions carried out by Ian Smith´s government.

[/ QUOTE ]

The actions carried out by Ian Smith were to prevent people like Mugabe from coming to power. The fact that Rhodesia was as successful as it was despite being landlocked in the poorest continent in the world is nothing short of amazing, and is due in large part to the governance of Ian Smith and his predecessors.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
True. Even though the current leader of the nation is an even bigger [censored] that is no excuse for the actions carried out by Ian Smith´s government.

[/ QUOTE ]

The actions carried out by Ian Smith were to prevent people like Mugabe from coming to power. The fact that Rhodesia was able to build a first world infrastructure despite being landlocked in the poorest continent in the world is nothing short of amazing, and is due in large part to the governance of Ian Smith and his predecessors.

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So to clarify, you support brutally racist opressive regimes? And you expect to be taken seriously?

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The actions carried out by Ian Smith were to prevent people like Mugabe from coming to power.

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You mean black people? Yeah. Thanks for letting me know not to take you serously.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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You mean black people? Yeah. Thanks for letting me know not to take you serously.

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I mean people who support communist regimes that have no respect for private property or sound fiscal policies, many of of whom happen be black. The fact that many black people fall into that category is not my fault. But I should note that there are many older black Zimbabweans who look back fondly on Rhodesia and call themselves Rhodesians.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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[ QUOTE ]
It's the generalization I object to

[/ QUOTE ]

What generalization, that repressive regimes have negative effects many years after they are out of power?

[ QUOTE ]
That said, I don't think it's shown that Smith caused Mugabe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mugabe built his reputation and popularity fighting against the minority government, considering Smith was the face of that government for 15 years, you would be pretty hard pressed to come up with any argument whereby Smith didn't play an extremely important role in Mugabe's rise to power and the limited options of Blacks in the first mixed elections.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mandela.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

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[ QUOTE ]

You mean black people? Yeah. Thanks for letting me know not to take you serously.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean people who support communist regimes that have no respect for private property or sound fiscal policies, many of of whom happen be black. The fact that many black people fall into that category is not my fault. But I should note that there are many older black Zimbabweans who look back fondly on Rhodesia and call themselves Rhodesians.

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No see, you don't understand. Ian Smith's actions literally prevented black people from taking power. That is what I would consider a blatantly racist opressive regime.

To celebrate him is to celebrate brutally racist opressive governments. There aren't two ways about it here.

Re: Ian Smith, last PM of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), dies
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jammy,

WOW! Didn't actually think Mugabe apologists existed?

Learn something new every day.

Not liking murdering filth makes people racists. OK makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be such an insulting prick. I was protesting against Mugabe before you could have even pointed out Zimbabwe on a map...

There's big problems with the western coverage of Zimbabwe, and you don't need to be a mugabe supporter or apologis to realise that.

In 1980 when Mugabe came to power and he rigged the elections, no one said a word in the west.

When his North Korean trained 5th brigade massacred 10,000 zapu supporters in matabeleland, and raped and beat thousands more, no one said a word of protest.

When mugabe rigged every presidential and parliamentary election from 1980 onwards and beat and arrested opposition supporters, no one said a word.

As long as Mugabe left the white farmers alone, left them their land and allowed the tobacco shipments to keep being exported, no one gave a [censored] what Mugabe was up to.

Then suddenly, a few thousand white farmers lose their land, and half a dozen get killed and suddenly Zimbabwe is big news, getting more coverage than any of the other dictators in Africa who are as bad or worse.

Do you not think that there is some hypocrisy here? Some racism? SOmething wrong that makes the lively-hoods of a few whites be valued more than the lives of 1000s of blacks?

At independence, Ian Smith and Britain essentially made a deal with Mugabe that he could do whatever the hell he liked as long as he left the white farmers alone, it was only once he broke that deal that they started opposing him.

So don't call me a [censored] apologist, until you have an understanding of african politics that goes above what you can get out off a 2 minute tv news headline.

The way to deal with murdering bastards like mugabe and saddam is not to ignore them for 20 years and then get all outraged when they bite the hand that feeds them. To do so is hypocricy on a staggering scale.