Live 40/80 TT on button, tough flop spot.
 

Location: Bicycle Casino in Bell Gardens, CA
Stakes: $40/$80
Players: Same game as the one mikel was in, but earlier, probably only about an hour into it or so. This is 6 or 7 handed. I forgot.

Principal Players:

SB – Middle-aged Vietnamese player. Only thing I know is that he’s loose and I’m not sure about his aggression.

BB – Loose aggressive pudgy middle aged white guy. Has made some check-raises and fancy plays early on, but has cooled of a lot since. He is way loose pre-flop.

Button – I’m here. Not established too much of an image yet.

Preflop action: (1.5 small bets, 6-7 players)

Folds to me, I raise with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], SB cold-calls (I put him on a range of 2 big cards or lower range of pocket pairs), BB 3-bets (Who the hell knows what he has? He appears to have one more small bet and is ready to go home). I cap to attempt to isolate/for value. No dice, SB calls again. BB is short a dollar for the raise and asks me for one so I gave it to him. He says I’m going to win it anyways.

Flop action: (12 small bets, 3 players): A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks to me. BB is all in. What’s your plan? Bet fold? Bet call, fold unimproved? Bet flop, check turn? Bet flop and turn? Check and fold to a turn bet?

Comments appreciated. Results to come.

Garland

Re: Live 40/80 TT on button, tough flop spot.
 

Start by betting. He's not going to c/r but if he does then call and fold turn if you don't pick up a draw. If he calls then you can either b/f turn or check turn fold river.

Re: Live 40/80 TT on button, tough flop spot.
 

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Start by betting. He's not going to c/r but if he does then call and fold turn if you don't pick up a draw. If he calls then you can either b/f turn or check turn fold river.

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Normally, I don't like to repeat something that's been well put but this is exactly what I'd do and I'd like to second it.

Re: Live 40/80 TT on button, tough flop spot.
 

this is my favorite spot to be in at the Bike or Commerce. It's like some weird annomaly that unless people in LA have the mortal nuts... they don't like to build big side-pots. It's weird... It's almost like they feel it disrespectful to the all-in player.

I bet the flop one time... then say something stupid like "oh, I forgot he was all in"... if the SB calls... I'm like 90% sure you can get a free show-down by passively checking the turn and watching the SB check the river.

I know it sounds weird... but I've seen it happen OVER and over again.

Of course... we aren't going to be that guy... if you hit your 10 on the turn, fire away

Re: Live 40/80 TT on button, tough flop spot.
 

At my club it's the complete opposite ... everybody is taking a shot at the dry side-pot. I don't get it, can someone enlighten me? This bet makes no sense (to me), you've respresented a big hand, the board has hit a big hand, you bet out, small blind folds and if you don't have the all-in beat you win absolutely zero. If it were more than 3-handed then maybe the bet makes sense on a draw heavy board to "protect" and try and get heads-up against the all-in, where you may have a good chance of having the better hand. But with 3 people? A SB who called 3 cold? He likely hit and given his play on this hand he's calling down with a better hand. I don't get it .... what does the bet accomplish?

Sorry for the rant guys, I'm probably just dense about this. Could someone educate me?

Re: Live 40/80 TT on button, tough flop spot.
 

The reason you bet here is because it's limit hold'em and you're only risking 1 sb to win 12. It's likely we are ahead often enough here but when players are loose PF and tricky postflop it's hard to put them on a hand, so playing perfectly (avoiding bets when we are already behind) is impossible, so we take the safe option and bet.

This might get SB to fold a hand like K8 or buy a free showdown.

Re: Live 40/80 TT on button, tough flop spot.
 

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BB 3-bets (Who the hell knows what he has? He appears to have one more small bet and is ready to go home). I cap to attempt to isolate/for value. No dice, SB calls again.

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This is limit hold 'em. No one folds for two more bets preflop when they have already put two bets in, even at places where the cap is 5 bets. Actually, no one folds in limit hold 'em, ever. That said, the 4-bet in this situation was a good value raise.

Postflop play has already been well discussed in this thread. Bet it once and be done with it if Villian calls.

Re: Live 40/80 TT on button, tough flop spot.
 

This is excellent advise, IMO. The only thing I'd like to add is one reason to bet the flop here is that sb would think you must have something to be betting into a zero dollar side pot and if you can get him to fold this already large pot for the price of one small bet, that's +++EV. And if he calls you then will almost always have the option of seeing two more cards for the price of that one small bet. Win, win for you.

Thoughts and results...
 

Thoughts: I botched the hand. I should have bet the flop (last money I put in unimproved) and folded to any aggression. My thoughts were along the lines of: if I bet, any gutshot is getting easy odds to call and I don't know where I stand. I check the flop and hope the turn blanks, and he checks to me and I bet it then to get the fold. All this under the illusion that I’m protected from a bluff because of the all-in. I should have known better.

Results: I check the flop. Turn comes a blank. SB leads into me and I fold. I later find out he likes betting with no hand as in the K7s thread. The river comes a 6. And no betting obviously. SB shows KQo for nut no pair. BB shows 65 and is given a gift because of my mistake. (However, he did give me two $1 blue chips back later on).

Thanks for your thoughts,

Garland

Re: Thoughts and results...
 

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Thoughts: I botched the hand. I should have bet the flop (last money I put in unimproved) and folded to any aggression.

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folding to aggression would be another mistake. Your getting 19:1 for a 3.5 out draw, call. Keep in mind the villain might get cold feet and check the turn.

Re: Thoughts and results...
 

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folding to aggression would be another mistake. Your getting 19:1 for a 3.5 out draw, call. Keep in mind the villain might get cold feet and check the turn.

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Sorry, where are you getting 19:1? I think you're under the impression that there are 4 players for 4 bets pre-flop.

Also, you mean to draw for a Q or 8 to give me a straight draw to continue to the river? Didn't really consider it, but you could be right. 3.5 outs?

Garland

Re: Thoughts and results...
 

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folding to aggression would be another mistake. Your getting 19:1 for a 3.5 out draw, call. Keep in mind the villain might get cold feet and check the turn.

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Sorry, where are you getting 19:1? I think you're under the impression that there are 4 players for 4 bets pre-flop.

Also, you mean to draw for a Q or 8 to give me a straight draw to continue to the river? Didn't really consider it, but you could be right. 3.5 outs?

Garland

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my bad -15:1. Its still more than enough to call with implied odds for runner runner and a 2-outer to a set.

Re: Thoughts and results...
 

check,fold

Re: Live 40/80 TT on button, tough flop spot.
 

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... He says I’m going to win it anyways.

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My experience is when people say this, they could have anything and are telling the truth. They have nothing to gain by lying at this point...

So I bet the flop trying to get the SB to fold a non-A hand. If he has a gutshot and calls so be it.

Assuming no flop c/r, I would bet the turn unless I picked up a draw.

And check behind on the river UI. I would probably call down a river bet UI because I am that bad, the pot is relatively big, and I tilt when I give up big pots I should have won.

If this is what HOWMANY said, then what he said.

Re: Live 40/80 TT on button, tough flop spot.
 

I like betting the flop because checking feels really lame. I think it is worth one small bet to isolate the all-in and pervent the other player from outdrawig me for free or bluffing me out on the turn. There is plenty of chance that the all in player has total gas.

I suspect the presence of an all-in player makes betting the turn unwise.
Betting the turn is a marginal play if the BB had simply folded the flop, so
betting now seems spewy. Especially since the SB should be caling with fewer hands on the flop due to the all in player.

I'm not sure if I call a river bet. The SB shouldn't be an a raw bluff since the BB would presumably win the main pot.

Change this to a situation where the BB folds and I bet the turn if and only if I pick up some kind of straight draw or a set. Otherwise I check the turn, planning to call a river bet. I think people will try to pick off an abandoned pot often enough here to justify a call. On the other hand, I dont like to bet a flop, check the turn and then fold if I have any sort of hand.