Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

I think playing overcards is costing me a bunch of money. Here are a few hands. Maybe you could give me some advice on what i should do?

#1: Villain here is terrible, 53%VPIP 23%PF, 4.4 AF

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO folds, Hero ??

I think i have to c-bet here. I seriously doubt this donk has the Jack. How should i respond to villain's raise? Assuming i call or raise, what should i do if i do not pair the turn?

#2:Here I have KQ instead of AK so i think there's much less chance i'm ahead. Villain is 27%VPIP 6.5%PF, 1.33 AF

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero ???

Should i take 1 shot here? If called, should i just give it up, or keep betting?

#3: Here i'm in position, but i don't have oc's. I do have a straight draw+1 oc. I think i have to bet this right? If called, do i just check turn and cf, or what?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero ???

#4 OK last one i promise! Here i'm in the bb. 1st limper is 15%VPIP, 2.5%PF, AF .8
raiser has 12% VPIP, 7.5%PF, 1.17 AF

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls

Again, assuming i don't hit the a or the k, do you think this is bet again, or c/f?


Hopefully this wasn't too long. Thanks a lot for your help!

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

I'm having a headache....

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

Hand 1: Yes, c-bet. Yes, peel. Plan on folding turn unimproved against most villains.

Hand 2: c/c this flop if it comes back one bet to you. If it's raised, fold.

Hand 3: Fire the second bullet against most villains. Consider checking behind vs. a LAG who bluff check-raises too often.

Hand 4: Yes, c-bet the flop. Yes, c/f this hand unimproved on the turn against most villains

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

Hand 1: Your cbet accomplished exactly what you wanted it to, which was to get heads up with the lagtard. Now get to showdown cheaply (unless you improve).

Hand 2: Too many opponents, too little hand strength. Check &amp; reevaluate, leaning towards check/fold.

Hand 3: Any read on the opponent? In most cases I check through the turn planning to fold UI to a river bet, but that can change depending on reads/table dynamics.

Hand 4: You are never ahead vs. these two if the turn doesn't improve you, and I sincerely doubt you're getting either of them to fold if you fire again. Depending on the turn card I can see either check/call or check/fold...really, if this is me then I'm praying for a scare card to fall on the turn so I can maybe get a free look at the river.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

Thanks, sorry for the pain in the ass formatting. My session kept crashing so i had to do the whole stupid thing on notepad.

My only problem is I see a lot of ppl calling as little as 1 overcard on the flop. If i'm OOP, my problem is if i'm c-betting adn then c/folding any observant player can just call me every flop, then bet every time i check, and i will have to fold.

Even dumb LAGs or passive donks realize this, so i'm afraid idiot players will call me with a4 or something looking to spike the ace, then when i check bluff me out.

Maybe i'm being overly worried about this, but most of the good players i see online usually fire 2 barrels. Am i correct that you guys are saying usually just fire 1?

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

No, I'm not saying that you should usually only fire once. In the hands you posted, sure, there was only one case where I advocated firing the second bullet. That doesn't mean that there aren't many more cases where firing the second bullet is appropriate.

JSampras1, you should read the following post on firing the second barrel; it's one of the best I've ever read on the subject and I guarantee that it will illuminate the concept for you: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=8710077

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

Hand 1 call down, it doesn't matter if you are beat here or not these are the types of hands guys will spew on. If you call down with AK they are going to eventually stop going over the top of you.

Hand 2 fr is not a raise for you because you don't know how to play it. Limp with it.

Hand 3 bet/fold the turn.

Hand 4 bet/call c/c river.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

I'll take a stab here.

Hand #1:With that flop you have a good chance of having the best hand. After the villian raises the flop you have to c/c down based on how aggressive he is.

Hand #2:Take one stab at the pot.

Hand #3:Bet the flop and bet the turn if he calls. there's a good chance with that board he only has some type of draw and you have the best hand. If called on turn take the free SD.

Hand #4:Bet flop. Bet/fold turn.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

Grunch:

1. Here I'm not so sure about the C-bet. Based on opponent why not C/R or C/C? With a 4.4 AF he's going to bet it whatever he's got. I'd likely C/C all the way against a player like this, unless I spiked.

2. I dojn't like the UTG preflop raise. I'll c/f flop unles the pot comes back to me with a couple of bets. If I'm looking at 12-1 or so, it's wirth seeing the turn with your 4 clean outs.

3. I bet this turn. It would be a marginal call for any flush draw and he's not indicating strength.

4. Bet and fold to a raise on the Turn.

Just as a general note, I've been paying attention to the number of absolutely appalling calls people make on the flor at 1/2. I'm talking 2 undercards, no straight draw, anything.

For a lot of people the game only seems to matter when you reach the big bets, when they apply the fit or fold mantra. This is a wonderful thing.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

hand 1 I cbet and call down cuz hes a maniac
hand 2 I check, possibly check/call the flop
hand 3 I'd really like to see villains fold to turn bet % here...
hand 4 I c bet.. probably fold turn UI since these guys look pretty tight

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm not saying that you should usually only fire once. In the hands you posted, sure, there was only one case where I advocated firing the second bullet. That doesn't mean that there aren't many more cases where firing the second bullet is appropriate.

JSampras1, you should read the following post on firing the second barrel; it's one of the best I've ever read on the subject and I guarantee that it will illuminate the concept for you: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=8710077

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, great thread. Definitely glad you posted the link !! Thank you !!

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

My pleasure. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO folds, Hero ??


[/ QUOTE ]
This is fine, call &amp; see what the turn brings. If he's the type to try to bluff here it may be worth heading to SD.

[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero ???


[/ QUOTE ]
Check &amp; see is ur best option here.

[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero ???


[/ QUOTE ]
Flop is good, pretty much a standard flop cbet here. The turn is a little different however &amp; becomes extremely player dependent. Against someone tricky or thinking player I tend to check behind &amp; often call river UI if I feel he could bluff into me. The main reason is that I feel a tricky opponent is likely to semi-bluff that turn with all draws, in fact unless he does it a lot, it would be the best play for ur opponent if u r prone to b/f. Against someone who peels very light it is prolly best to bet the turn again.

[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls


[/ QUOTE ]
I like to bet here &amp; hope I can get at least 1 of them to fold, both would be best!

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

What do you think is a good C-bet % ? I just got Holdem Manager and looked at my C-bet and it's WAAAY too high at 93% on the flop and 88% on the turn. I was thinking it should be probably around 80% on the flop and less on the turn. I am wondering if anyone has holdem manager what their C-bet stats are.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

Please post more hands in one thread so the responses can become even shorter and less informative, something like this:
#1 c
#2 c
#3 f
#4 c
#5 r
#6 c
#7 b
#8 x
#9 r
#10 killing spree
#11 c
#12 f
#13 lolf
#14 c
#15 p
#16 f
#17 f

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

I honestly have no idea what a good c-bet percentage would be; I would expect, however, that it would be HIGHLY dependent on what stakes you play. If you play at nano stakes where pretty much every pot is multi-way, your c-bet percentage should be MUCH lower than at a stake where a lot of hands go heads up or 3way.

This is a rather stark contrast, but it's used to illustrate a point; your c-bet % will probably deviate from stake to stake. And it should.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

Hand 1: Well-played. Pot is big enough to call down. He'll probably show Ax or 22-1010. There are enough Ax in his range to call down.

Hand 2: I'd probably bet this a little less than half the time. When you do bet the flop, I think you have to bet all the way since you have little showdown value (that's why I would only take that line half the time or so). You'd hate to check-check the river and someone take it down with A4. If you check, it's pretty much a white flag. Check/folding unless you improve, probably the best way to go most of the time.

Hand 3: Like above, I think you have to continue betting and fold to a C/R. He'll make it obvious if he has a jack, and he probably would've donked the flop with a Q. I think I bet it down most the time, possibly check the river against certain opponents.

Hand 4: This is well-played so far. 3-betting was the best option, and you hit a decent flop with lots of runner-runner outs and overs. You have some showdown-value, but you are out of position. The bad thing is that both of these guys are over-passive. They are definetly capable of calling down 55-1010 here which lowers your folding equity. On the flip side, they are also likely to check it down if they have Ax. Bet the flop, check a non A or K turn (since they're likely to check behind), same strategy on the river.

All-in-all, these are all more or less fine. I replied to you in the other thread, and I'll say the same here. This kind of stuff (post-flop in raised pots) is best practiced in 6-max. Take a week for only 6-max or just make a few of your tables 6-max if you multitable. It's worth it.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

I hijacked hand 4 in another thread. Most people stop betting the turn. I totally disagree with that.

Re: Stars 1/2 - Several cbet hands - to cbet or not to cbet?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hijacked hand 4 in another thread. Most people stop betting the turn. I totally disagree with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're up against a rock who limped from EP &amp; called 2 more preflop, and a rock who raised another rock &amp; called your 3bet. Both called the flop c-bet.

What worse hands do they have? What better hands do they fold?