AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

I just opened up this table, so I have exactly 100BB. Villian covers me. No tells whatsoever.
NL 6-handed 1/2. Hero is dealt AQo.

UTG limps, Villian makes it 10, Hero calls in BB, so does UTG.

Flop: 7 heart, A diamond, 10 clubs.

Hero checks, UTG checks, Villian bets 20 (pot is 31.)
Hero calls, UTG folds.

Turn= 9 spade
Hero checks, Villian bets 50, Hero calls.

River= A clubs.
Hero checks, Villian bets All-in.
(Pot is 131, I have 70 left)

Question 1= Would anyone raise this flop?

Question 2= Could anyone fold this river, if so, why?

Question 3= Would you like a turn fold, esp since I have never played with Villian before?

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

Mis-read action.

I think pre sucks and always ends up in situations like this. I think you can fold the turn.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

Calling pre is pretty bad IMO. Fold or re-raise.

As played the question isn't really whether or not you should call the river. The question is whether or not you should continue past the flop or the turn. I'd either bet-fold the flop or check-raise the flop normally, sometimes check-call the flop if I'm planning on getting in on the turn (for value) with a check-raise. Best way to keep the pot small however is to bet-fold the flop.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

wut

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
wut

[/ QUOTE ]

You heard me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Seriously tho, do you disagree with something I said?

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

CRing the flop is gash

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
CRing the flop is gash

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

edit assuming gash = bad

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wut

[/ QUOTE ]

You heard me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Seriously tho, do you disagree with something I said?

[/ QUOTE ]

c/r is bad, because you have a good hand, but not in a situation where you want to get all your chips in with it on the flop. same with leading out. not much reason to lead out unless you want to get raised, and you don't.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wut

[/ QUOTE ]

You heard me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Seriously tho, do you disagree with something I said?

[/ QUOTE ]

c/r is bad, because you have a good hand, but not in a situation where you want to get all your chips in with it on the flop. same with leading out. not much reason to lead out unless you want to get raised, and you don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I am thinking too.
But I can agree that I should have 3-bet preflop, normally I do, but I have never ever played with Villian before.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

If we lead the flop, what hands raise?

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If we lead the flop, what hands raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

hrm. i wouldn't really think of it like that. mainly what i'm getting at is this. you're in a 3 way pot without the lead, and a medium/strong hand. leading out in this situation reps a super strong hand, which is bad to rep with a medium/strong hand unless you're playing against really bad players. if you wanna rep something super strong, you should either have a super strong hand or air most of the time.

edit: guess its just HU, but that doesn't really change things all that much.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

as played (def. fold or RR pre) you can really only c/c the flop. turn i either dump or b/f.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we lead the flop, what hands raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

hrm. i wouldn't really think of it like that. mainly what i'm getting at is this. you're in a 3 way pot without the lead, and a medium/strong hand. leading out in this situation reps a super strong hand, which is bad to rep with a medium/strong hand unless you're playing against really bad players. if you wanna rep something super strong, you should either have a super strong hand or air most of the time.

edit: guess its just HU, but that doesn't really change things all that much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's where I'm coming from.

One of my standard line would be to bet the flop, check the turn, then VB the river if the turn checks thru or check-evaluate the river if he bets the turn.

This way we get max value from hands like pocket underpairs by never sscaring them away, but we still keep the pot small so we can ourselves get away if the opponent wakes up with a very strong hand. This all depends on the idea that if we lead the flop, it might rep a strong hand but it will look suspicious. Suispicios enough so a hand like QQ will say "I'll call one time." Then when we check the turn it only confirms his suspcions that we do, in fact, have crap. He still will not usually bet the turn however because he doesnt want to get check-raised. So check-check. (Edit: this is also a sexy spot for a stack-a-donk with the right hand against the right opponent. This is not that.) Now when we bet the river he will have already convinced himself that we are just being a dork and he will call. If at any point he raises (flop or river) it is usually because he has such a strong hand that he is thinking at the 1st level, and we can (generally) safely fold.

This is all of course very player-dependant, but in my experience most unknowns will fall in to this category. This all falls apart the worst against very aggressive opponents who could raise with air, but that isn't most opponents.

Edit this is also all dependant on the fact that we didn't 3bet pre, which would totally change the hand. I think we generally should 3bet pre.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

Re raise pre ... as played i think you gotta call the river

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

Chicago Twister, here are my thoughts on the flop (ignore preflop, I should have 3-bet).
If I check this flop, he is going to bet both his missed hands and his strong hands, and it is more probable that he missed/is weak.
If we lead flop, he is going to fold most hands that are worse than mine, and I have gained no value, but if we check he will bet both his worse and better hands.
So IMO it is EV+ to check flop since we will get more value from the hand than if we lead.

I like this discussion, plz keep on debating wether it is EV+ to c/c or lead flop.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
(def. fold or RR pre)

[/ QUOTE ]

why are people saying this?

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(def. fold or RR pre)

[/ QUOTE ]

why are people saying this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because by simply flatting pre you reduce yourself to basically playing fit-or-fold postflop. If we had position we would have an additional way to win: by judging the opponent's range and leveraging our position when he is weak. But since we are OOP and flatted, that option is gone. Now he is the one with positional advantage, and we will forever be at his mercy. If we flop nothing (which we will 67% of the time) we'll have to just fold to his CB. If we flop something, bet, and are raised, now we're in a very difficult spot because he is telling us he can beat TP. Since the pot is large we'll have a hard time folding, but every time we call we light another $100 bill on fire. Pushing is even worse because it is nothing more than a bluff.

Its much better to either take the initiative yourself by 3betting pre, or just avoiding the situation completely by folding. There is no shame in folding, either.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If we lead flop, he is going to fold most hands that are worse than mine

[/ QUOTE ]

Highlighted is the key. If this is in fact true, then yes you are 100% correct. I guess the debate for me comes down to wheter or not this is true. In my experience it is not. Again it is completely player dependant, but I find that many players will react as I described. YMMV

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

Lead the flop, if people insta fold A hi boards then raise more and c bet every a hi board possible, you'll make more over time doing that. But, people do not insta muck A hi boards so bet and try to have money only go in on 2 streets.


Given how you've played this I don't see how you can fold here.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

I agree with fold or RR preflop.

Given the preflop call, why is no one C/R the flop here? You'll get a much better understanding of where you stand.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

I make AQ my line in the sand for flatting/3-betting out of the blinds, depending on the orig. PFR's stats. With no stats I default to flatting like you did. You should def. lead this flop 3-way since its highly unlikely that the PFR will c-bet a multi-way A high flop w/out an ace (unless he is aggro, and again you have no read). Leading the flop, checking the turn and v-betting the river is a good line. If raised on the flop you need to call, I generally c/c the turn against and unknown and c/f the river if he continues betting and I don't improve.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lead the flop, if people insta fold A hi boards then raise more and c bet every a hi board possible, you'll make more over time doing that. But, people do not insta muck A hi boards so bet and try to have money only go in on 2 streets.


Given how you've played this I don't see how you can fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt say that people always fold on a A high board, I said that he will fold a worse hand than my AQ, and I will have gained no value.
I would have shown a lot of strength by betting into 2 people here, which will make them take my bet more seriously and increase the chances/risks of a fold.
Plus I have never played a single hand with any of them earlier, so it was harder then usual to guess their range, and I didnt know what kind of players they were so I took the "safe" line and just c/c.

Anybody like a c/r here? I dont think that it´s a bad idea at all. Would make the hand easier to play.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I make AQ my line in the sand for flatting/3-betting out of the blinds, depending on the orig. PFR's stats. With no stats I default to flatting like you did. You should def. lead this flop 3-way since its highly unlikely that the PFR will c-bet a multi-way A high flop w/out an ace (unless he is aggro, and again you have no read). Leading the flop, checking the turn and v-betting the river is a good line. If raised on the flop you need to call, I generally c/c the turn against and unknown and c/f the river if he continues betting and I don't improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I lead flop and get raised, c/c turn, I would have put around 50-60BB into the pot on the river and then fold.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

Mucho, mucho bad advice in this thread.

I usually RR pre-flop. Sometimes I call. Rarely fold. Blindly stating that not re-raising is always bad is simply wrong.

Further, saying no one calls a c/r with a worse hand is lol. Nobody folds an Ace to a flop c/r. People don't fold top pair.

I don't mind a call on the flop either.

The turn is a pretty bad card for you and I can see folding.

But since you called, folding the river would be heavily compounding your mistake (if it was one) on the turn. He's not checking behind with any ace given the stacks, and he'll bluff KQ/QJ/JT/KJ etc often enough that you are good here 40% of the time. folding for $70 on this river would be disastrously stupid.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

bilbo can you just expand on why the turn is a bad card?

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(def. fold or RR pre)

[/ QUOTE ]

why are people saying this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because by simply flatting pre you reduce yourself to basically playing fit-or-fold postflop. If we had position we would have an additional way to win: by judging the opponent's range and leveraging our position when he is weak. But since we are OOP and flatted, that option is gone. Now he is the one with positional advantage, and we will forever be at his mercy. If we flop nothing (which we will 67% of the time) we'll have to just fold to his CB. If we flop something, bet, and are raised, now we're in a very difficult spot because he is telling us he can beat TP. Since the pot is large we'll have a hard time folding, but every time we call we light another $100 bill on fire. Pushing is even worse because it is nothing more than a bluff.

Its much better to either take the initiative yourself by 3betting pre, or just avoiding the situation completely by folding. There is no shame in folding, either.

[/ QUOTE ]

so what, it just seems way to contradictory to make any sense. you have a hand that is worthy of 3betting in the situation described, yet you'd rather fold it than just call. wtf? that makes no sense.

its okay to call preflop and then just c/f the flop if we whiff. flatting preflop gives you options to get away from tpgk if villain doesnt lay off on the turn/river rather than just committing ourselves pf to getting AI on the flop every time we catch a piece.

im not saying that i totally disagree w/ your post. im just saying that it doesnt make sense to have a hand that you're willing to 3bet with but want to fold rather than call.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
bilbo can you just expand on why the turn is a bad card?

[/ QUOTE ]

a) If villain raised pre-flop with a suited connector hand, this hits a lot of it hard. Hands like T9, J9, 97, 87, T8, 98, etc all improved; there are now going to be a TON of messy river cards (remember that at the turn decision point you didn't know that the river would be so good), and you have to expect villain to bet a lot of rivers, and you will like very few of them. This is what we refer to as the "spiked hammer of position". If your hand is good, you not only have to worry about the $50 now, but also the push on the river. Villain, on the other hand, has the option of checking behind with his moderate hands (A2, for example) if the river blanks, but bet if he improves to two pair or makes a straight, etc. He's risking $50, you are risking your stack.

b) Furthermore, it's a hand that should make villain slow down sometimes because it could hit YOU really hard. Yet he's betting, and quite strong. Hmmmm.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

Bilbo-san, loved your analysis.
Thought it was very good in every sort of way. I do agree that this is mostly a 3-bet preflop, but it seems like a lot of people miss the fact that it was my absolut first hand with these guys, just switched site.
Therefore I chose to just call and to hopefully keep the pot smaller since I´m OOP.

But, my question to you bilbo-san (and anyone else of course) is, as played, do you think that c/c flop is the best line?
Do you think a c/r can be good without any/few reads in this situation?
Do you see any reason to lead flop?

As played, you would fold turn?

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

calling preflop is totally fine, especially against an unknown. Once you get to the river you cant ever fold.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

Yeah, forgot to admit that even thinking about folding river is wrong, eventhough I had a pretty strong feeling that I was beat.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

Question to any Carpal/Tunnel etc,

As played, do you think that c/c flop is the best line?
Do you think a c/r can be good without any/few reads in this situation?
Do you see any reason to lead flop?

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

I like the way you played the hand, provided you called the river.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just opened up this table, so I have exactly 100BB. Villian covers me. No tells whatsoever.
NL 6-handed 1/2. Hero is dealt AQo.

UTG limps, Villian makes it 10, Hero calls in BB, so does UTG.

Flop: 7 heart, A diamond, 10 clubs.

Hero checks, UTG checks, Villian bets 20 (pot is 31.)
Hero calls, UTG folds.

Turn= 9 spade
Hero checks, Villian bets 50, Hero calls.

River= A clubs.
Hero checks, Villian bets All-in.
(Pot is 131, I have 70 left)


[/ QUOTE ]

how do you only have 70 left(50+20+10 = 80, 200-80 = 120)? As played, I'd call 70 into 131 pot. If it's 120 to call I think you can fold

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you have a hand that is worthy of 3betting in the situation described, yet you'd rather fold it than just call. wtf? that makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess the most concise way for me to explain it is this: you need a better hand to call, especially OOP, than you need to raise. Not the other way around.

Depending on the situation AQ might be good enough relative to the opponents' ranges to be good enough to flat. But generally it's not. AQ is a fine hand and has a decent ammount of equity against most ranges here, but it's not a great hand and is still a dog against a very large portion of BN's range. Given the opponent is unknown here, I think its very unwise to flat pre.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
calling preflop is totally fine, especially against an unknown. Once you get to the river you cant ever fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you explain why? We mis the flop a lot and have to fold (maybe the best hand) to his cbet or we hit and we still don't know what to do.

Or are we c/raising dry flops as a bluff as well etc? I find this difficult as Villain is unknown and we are OOP.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
calling preflop is totally fine, especially against an unknown. Once you get to the river you cant ever fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you explain why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to hear this as well.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

Reraise to $25 or fold preflop. If you reraise and get called, then continuation bet for $35 and see what happens. It is such a dry flop that if he pushes, then you basically only beat AJ and a bluff with JJ-KK or worse. Since a bluff seems unlikely, you could find a fold to a push over your continuation bet in that scenario.

As played for the cold call preflop, I think you should donk bet the flop to represent the ace (that you have), and consider giving up the pot if he doesn't go away. Again, you only beat AJ and bluffs at that point (unless he's hanging around with A-rag for top-pair no kicker, but that seems less likely than AT-AK/TT-AA after his big pfr).

As played to the river, and after showing so much weakness throughout the entire hand, you should probably call the river push. I think he's pushing with less than trip aces with a Q kicker at least 35% of the time given how much weakness you've shown throughout the hand.

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reraise to $25 or fold preflop. If you reraise and get called, then continuation bet for $35 and see what happens. It is such a dry flop that if he pushes, then you basically only beat AJ and a bluff with JJ-KK or worse. Since a bluff seems unlikely, you could find a fold to a push over your continuation bet in that scenario.

As played for the cold call preflop, I think you should donk bet the flop to represent the ace (that you have), and consider giving up the pot if he doesn't go away. Again, you only beat AJ and bluffs at that point (unless he's hanging around with A-rag for top-pair no kicker, but that seems less likely than AT-AK/TT-AA after his big pfr).

As played to the river, and after showing so much weakness throughout the entire hand, you should probably call the river push. I think he's pushing with less than trip aces with a Q kicker at least 35% of the time given how much weakness you've shown throughout the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like this input, but I have one question.
WHY should I donk into him??

He will bet with both missed hands and made hands, is it not better to c/c and gain value when he bets?

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

i sometimes flat with AQ, but only when i have a read on the raiser. new at the table both folding and raising have merit.

i prefer a fold, but raising is good because you will never be 4bet light, so you know where you are alot of the time.

as for the hand, i probably pay off, but it's close

Re: AQ, very tough hand, what line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reraise to $25 or fold preflop. If you reraise and get called, then continuation bet for $35 and see what happens. It is such a dry flop that if he pushes, then you basically only beat AJ and a bluff with JJ-KK or worse. Since a bluff seems unlikely, you could find a fold to a push over your continuation bet in that scenario.

As played for the cold call preflop, I think you should donk bet the flop to represent the ace (that you have), and consider giving up the pot if he doesn't go away. Again, you only beat AJ and bluffs at that point (unless he's hanging around with A-rag for top-pair no kicker, but that seems less likely than AT-AK/TT-AA after his big pfr).

As played to the river, and after showing so much weakness throughout the entire hand, you should probably call the river push. I think he's pushing with less than trip aces with a Q kicker at least 35% of the time given how much weakness you've shown throughout the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh.

See my post above for the whole call vs. re-raise line. Folding preflop == lol.

Bet/folding TP2K in a 3-bet pot is incredibly stupid. You're bluffing with top pair!?

Someone else said:

[ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why? We mis the flop a lot and have to fold (maybe the best hand) to his cbet or we hit and we still don't know what to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain what magical forces are making me fold whenever I miss. If you never know what to do when you hit, then play more poker. Practice the situation.