The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

Folded round to you in SB and you have 99. you are playing a 21/17 game.

BB is tricky, decent 24/21 who knows importance of position, willing to float, generally decent player (not some 18/12 grinder, but someone with ambitions to move up).

What do you do?

I advocate limp becuase I think raising leaves you vulnerable:

- he will expect your range is pretty wide here so he will call with a wide spectrum of hands as he will a) know he has position and b) will not want to seem like an easy blind steal

- you will flop an overpair only 20% of the time. if you plan to fire c-bet the flop and he could easily float you and then your in that '[censored], do i bet the turn again and let him make a move or keep paying him off or do i check and let him successful float-bluff me?'

for sure, sometimes he will fold preflop and fold on the flop, but given his player style this is not that often (note if he was a 17/12 i'd say raise pf everytime)

whereas by limping:

- he may raise with a wide range of hands and so by calling this, he will think maybe you are making a flat call with a speculative hand. if he then fires on the flop, you can then check-call given he will more often than not miss and will likely reveal his strength on the turn.

but importantly;

- when he checks you can then fire on the flop and either take it down then, or you can check and more often that not he'll bet with as a bluff or with a lower pair than 99, thus you get paid.

-----

well, those are my thoughts. as i mentioned a couple of weeks ago, i spent a lot of august re-evaluating my game, i used to always raise 99 in the sb but now i think focusing on a positional style of play preflop is much, much better. since switching to focusing more on position preflop when considering the blinds i have been a lot happier (and successful relative to july) than when i was playing a more hand strength preflop game.

for instance, the small blind takes a pounding when im in the big blind (obv i shift down gears if he starts limp-reraising).

i must stress this is only when the BB is a very good 24/21 or so. if he is tightish ill raise everytime.

but i just dont see the point in building a pot oop vs a tricky semi-lag with a hand which we can rarely have a lot of confidence with.

also id add if ive been playing tight on the table then im more likely to raise, as ever the importance of playing based on your image applies here.

ill throw in a poll:

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

john kane anthology material right here baby

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

One vote for "errr....wtf....this is always a raise...."

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

post i just made on the other thread i think is a worthy point as well:

by raising 99 pf you are making it a 4 betting street hand. with 99 oop vs a tricky playing willing to bluff-raise or float or whatever, i'd prefer to make it a 2 or 3 betting street hand than 4.

this hand will always be marginal if the pot escalates, and i dont want that when vs a tricky smart player oop on 4 streets of action.

edit: also, i am not trying to level anyone here or anything, i think it is better to limp.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

I see a lot of you ppl did what I nearly did and didn't read all of the poll options before voting

I didn't read the OP yet either though.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

what about smaller pairs? let's say you have 4s or 5s, do you raise or limp against this sort of player?

also how do u play your 9s? very passive on good flops? call down frequently?

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

smaller pairs i'd probably limp and fire most flops given im then likely ahead.

i'd rather do this than raise, get called, and then fire on a flop, then when he calls his hand range is infinite, whereas if he calls when i limp-bet flop i know he likely has something.

i think fold equity in SB on flop is much higher when you limp-bet than raise-bet.

as for playing 9s, the 20% it is an overpair ill always bet, if it comes with two cards from J or above then ill bet, as for one overcard im not sure, probably mix it up, but more likely check then bet turn.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

to those who are always raising:

when you get called, flop comes 4 8 Q and you bet, he calls.

what are you then doing on the turn? (whatever the turn is, 3 7, A, i dont think it matters that much given his hand range is so wide).

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

I play poker?

wtf

building a pot when we have a big edge against our opponent's range is not a bad thing

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
smaller pairs i'd probably limp and fire most flops given im then likely ahead.

i'd rather do this than raise, get called, and then fire on a flop, then when he calls his hand range is infinite, whereas if he calls when i limp-bet flop i know he likely has something.

i think fold equity in SB on flop is much higher when you limp-bet than raise-bet.



[/ QUOTE ]

So do I want to

a) create a small pot and get no action unless I am behind

or

b) Create a bigger pot and get called by an "infinite" range on the flop of which we are ahead of a large part.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

rejohnkaneme

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play poker?

wtf

building a pot when we have a big edge against our opponent's range is not a bad thing

[/ QUOTE ]

imo, not when there are streets still to go and he'll always be able to see where in your range you are playing (by your turn action) and you won't be able to see where in his range he is playing (by acting first on turn), and that he can represent he is in a higher region of his range when he sees you are representing a hand lower in your range (if you check turn) thus i think you are committing yourself to betting the turn.

thus the only way to compensate that is to represent a hand lower in your range than it actually is, and to then induce him to represent a hand higher in his range than he actually does, i.e. by playing it passively on previous streets/preflop.

doubt that makes much sense, but hopefully some.

for example, on the turn, if we bet again, we have committed ourselves to engaging in a bet regardless of the turn card becuase we have bet on both preflop and flop, that isnt a good situation being the guy who is blindly making bets and letting the opponent choose whether to accept it.

meh, maybe thats a load of crap, but i think there is some truth in that. if by raising pf and betting flop, you are committing yourself to betting turn vs a tricky smart opponent, i don't think that is a good situation to be in at all, especially as your other option is to check-call and that screams out showdown value.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
smaller pairs i'd probably limp and fire most flops given im then likely ahead.

i'd rather do this than raise, get called, and then fire on a flop, then when he calls his hand range is infinite, whereas if he calls when i limp-bet flop i know he likely has something.

i think fold equity in SB on flop is much higher when you limp-bet than raise-bet.



[/ QUOTE ]

So do I want to

a) create a small pot and get no action unless I am behind

or

b) Create a bigger pot and get called by an "infinite" range on the flop of which we are ahead of a large part.

[/ QUOTE ]

tbh i think you are thinking in 1 street terms of option b)

are you then always betting turn? becuase if your not then i assume sometimes your check-calling turn and clearly showing a marginal showdown value hand

and if you are always betting turn do you not think it is a bad play it be committed to making a bet regardless of the turn card vs a player who you have no idea what his hand range is (as is my thought)?

as for option a) it's a standard odds bet imo. limpcall+3/4 bet flop = 2BB
to win 1.5BB put in from forced blinds

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

I think the case you make is sound and is basically the same case against 3-betting 99 in the blinds.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

then check call again on river?

anyway, i don't think we can only raise our premiums here in the sb, as that makes us very vulnerable, thoughts?

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

[x] hero has a nasty case of FPS

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

john - if you play 99 as a cbet, c/f everytime we dont have an overpair, your argument may have a point. But we can c/c a lot of flops and turns, double barrel and other postflop plays to counter someone floating pretty easily.

you are losing money c/c pre or on the flop b/c villain will have control of the pot size, and if he is any good, he'll won't work that to our advantage

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

LOL 99 is such a bad hand i open fold it pf all the time cuz i can't win at poker unless i have at least top pair

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

dtan, i just don't like the line of pf-raise, bet flop, check-call turn, check-call river. it's just seems to 'guessy' that you have not been able to work out his hand and just hope you have him beat. if the flop is draw heavy it's an okay line, but otherwise i think your too often paying off better hands and not getting anything when you have him marginally beat.

i dont think it makes us that vulnerable as we can then start limp-reraising trash, premium, and just messing with his head.

ikestoys, i understand your reasoning and agree that a mix of postflop plays based on history is the way to play 99 if you've raised preflop, i'd just rather limp and get a bit of action from low flopped pairs than having to choose between a variety of plays oop in a blinds hand when action could be on all 4 streets and come river 4 in 5 times i've got a mid pair.

agreed as well that villain's advantage of being able to pot size control given his positional advantage, but i feel that applies to when we have raised preflop, he can choose which hands to given action and which not to, whereas by betting religiously we are always giving action, and by not betting we are thus letting him control pot size.

either way, vs a smart good regular, position is crucial, so i don't see why i'd want to escalate a pot with what is 80% a pair of 9s.

99 looks great pf vs a random. it doesn't look so good when an good tricky player has called our flop bet or has lead out on the turn/river.

meh, maybe we have to ignore our hand and play with what we are representing, i think treating the hand as '99' is the problem. but that is far easier in position than oop, so hence i recently i have focused far more on position than (probably ever) before.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

i dont think you can make a definite statement how to play one hand everytime, it has to fit together with the generell style you play and you have adjust the frequencies against players you play a lot with. you might occasionally bet the mediocre/bad hands and check/call the good ones but dont overdo it.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

If villain always call your c-bet and fire turn/river, then just wait for a solid tp type hand and call him down. He won't have a hand every time. On the other hand, if he changes gear and stop firing turn/river, then you can get to showdown cheap with a mid pair like 99.

You are giving up way too much equity preflop if you are just limping 99.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

well, I dunno about you, but at 2/4, almost nobody's gonna fire 2 barrels after you fire without having a hand with high absolute strength

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

i think donkeykong and TA3 say it well in that it really is a case of it being based on recent hand history and adapting your decisions based on what your opponent will think of you based on recent collisions. this is pretty much what i realised when taking time off and studying the game, that against regulars it really is very history based and using that to your advantage.

dtan, i agree in general that people won't fire 2 barrels on turn and river in that hand betting system, but they will if i start folding rivers. so i'd need to call sometimes and fold others, which then becomes a bit of a lottery not in our favour as we are the ones always checking whereas he can decide whether to bet or check based on the recent history, and use that to his advantage.

anyways, i'm not trying to suggest any of you are wrong, we all have our ideas and i imagine we are all long term winners, but i just wanted to pose this as i think as we are up against more regulars at 2-4nl+ it's become more important to know what to do have hand plans and a range of hand plays based on recent play rather than having a set system (which i think works well at below 2-4nl, but 3-6nl and above i think concentrating on your opponents becomes increasingly important - yeah very basic, but still very important).

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

being able to read hands well is the deciding factor in how much you win/lose/get run the [censored] over in these spots.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

I think you're seriously misunderstanding the postflop strength of 99, even OOP, blind versus blind.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

I think limping 99 in the SB is ok sometimes in the situation you suggested, but only to mix things up as I'll be raising it most of the times regardless. In fact I think I've maybe open-completed in the SB about 3 times in my last 40k hands

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're seriously misunderstanding the postflop strength of 99, even OOP, blind versus blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

please explain, i am interested.

we have 61.5% equity when seeing a flop vs any ace, any pair, any suited con and gap con above 56s and any two cards above 9.

maybe that is enough. i think good tricky players are far more likely to try to make moves when they've called a raise rather than when they've checked in the big blind, so i think his hand becomes far easier to read when you limp pf (when he wont get fancy).

edit: [ QUOTE ]
In fact I think I've maybe open-completed in the SB about 3 times in my last 40k hands

[/ QUOTE ]

doesnt this become very exploitable?

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

empty your pm box john! thx

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

well a good tricky player is going to raise like 40-50% of his hands, right?

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

raise, u want money in the pot with a hand that has a statistical edge over his. It only going to be interesting when he does raise which will be not that often. Your strategy is alright only if u are facing people with the win every pot disease and even then you will be faced with expensive decisions since he is the one taking inititiave which you have allowed. Guessing is never good but i suppose it is necessary in this situation. Playing 99 likr this tailors toward a certain type of player with good judgment in these type of situations. Are u planning on goin into check call mode once the flop comes or what? If you play 99 like this preflop "slowly" i guess it would be same to assume to.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

"Agressive poker is good poker2 is an accepted statement.
I don`t know how much you steal in these situations but 99 is on of the better hands in my range there.

I am more interested in what we are 4betting in a BvB.
Is 88+ good enough? Still assuming Villain is 24/19 or so?
And we are 24/19 as well?

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

It sounds to me like you need to work on your postflop game, not starting to openlimp 99 in the SB. What makes you think it will be easier to play postflop if you limp and he raises? A good tricky player will raise up to 50% from the BB when SB open limps. You will see a flop with overcards often, and he is cbetting like 90% of them. Meh, raise your strong hands and open up your postflop lines so the LAGs won't float you as much. I don't mind firing most turncards with 99 if I am called on the flop in a blind vs blind battle, and neither should you. Also someone said your game will be transparent if you limp hands as strong as 99 and only raise JJ, AQ+ or so.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

a good player would raise a lot (i raise probs 90% in this situation if i were BB so long as SB didnt adapt), but if he is then im happy to let him raise and ill call with a range of hands given he is likely committing himself to a continuation bet and i can pick and choose when i want to match that bet.

[ QUOTE ]
Are u planning on goin into check call mode once the flop comes or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

id probably base it on history, but in general i don't want to be playing hands oop vs the tricky, smart types of players, hence happy to keep the pot smaller rather than larger.

i dunno, i just rate position so highly in likely 4 street action pots, especially with a hand like 99 where i really don't want action on all 4 streets and so position becomes incredibly important in achieving that.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

it's not a likely 4 street pot

your opponent has two random cards, if there's money going in on all four streets with any sort of regularity that is a VERY VERY GOOD THING for you

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

Chances of most people screwing up this middle pocket pair OOP>than them squeezing the little bit of extra EV from limping. Your average mid stakes player won't show profit limping this oop vs a good player, just raise and play poker from there on.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

RR everytime

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In fact I think I've maybe open-completed in the SB about 3 times in my last 40k hands

[/ QUOTE ]

doesnt this become very exploitable?



[/ QUOTE ]
Not really, I don't open limp vs anyone. its usually vs a passive fish who's stacksize deters me from raising but allows me to play hands like 65s profitably vs him.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

Not raising 99 in the sb is retarded.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

John,

Stop speaking in such absolutes. Nearly every one of your posts is along the lines of "I always do this." "What do you do on the turn? (when discussing PF)"

Don't be so static in your play.

Fact of the matter is that 99 plays MUCH better post flop than you seem to think, and plays far better with initiative than without.

If the guy directly to your left is giving you so much trouble, sit somewhere else.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

john kane -

what you are failing to note is just how often an overcard flops to your dummy hand, meaning you are simply burning money. when you limp/call like that if you have tag stats i will put you on a pocket pair and abuse you.

limp/calling can be profitable if used correctly, but inventing a wide range to limp/call is tossing money away. remember, you could've had that blind for free.