high stakes absolute players
 

steamroller, greycat, doubledrag,
win every day every session they play from talking to other high stakes players,
has anyone ever booked a winning session against them cuz i havent
anyway dont really play there these days because of what seems to be suspicious things on there

i also saw steamroller chip dumping to someone named supercard i think, steam would cap flop, turn, and river then fold for 1 or something like that, and i remember greycat saying he lost 50+k to supercard

ive never played with double drag but my friend told me ppl were very suspicous of his nl play and he ended up dumping 250k the next day to romaldo or something like that

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Why does it worry you that some people would chipdump to others?

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

im worried about more than chip dumping..

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

so they win every session except the ones they chipdumb?

i think your strategy should be to find the sessions where they are chipdumping and join.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Actually I should take what you say more seriously. FWIW when I was playing against graycat it felt like he could see my hand - some ridiculous things happened. He limp/called preflop a decent amount, but limp/folded only twice. When I had KK and QQ. And no I didn't win. Ditto for doubledrag.

Haven't played steamroller HU but he was terrible/won heaps in 6max.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Does anyone datamine these games?

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

did u play grey cat hu?

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

I have been playing on ap for years now and do play all the sites for the last few years, I play anywhere from 10-20nl to 100-200nl and play the 100-200lmt 200-400lmt on ap and ps. But i have watched and noticed all these players and can state that their play is consistent with one who could possibly see the cards. I have analyzed their play after seeing how they play everyhand and some how know when to fold make the perfect bluff and make the best value bet possible it is almost too perfect. I have 400 hands accumilated with steamroller and his showdown percentage of winning with me is 75%..isn't that unheard of? Doubledrag plays every hand and overbets pots when a player has nothing and i'm saying overbets as in 700$ pot and player checks and double will bet like 3k and players will consistenly fold. I watched double play agianst 2 quality opponents both sitting 10k buy ins at the 25 50 deep stack 10k buy in now at ap and he was at 22k and one player raised and he reraised preflop and the 2 other players called reraises making the pot about 700
(i apoligize for the weak show of the hand because i can't find it in hand history) flop came 2c4s4c and double raised 355 and first player to act called and second player reraised the pot to 2800....double then was to act and thought for awhile and went all in into both players and first player folded and second player thought and called with qk suited clubs and double had a9 offsuit turn came the club and double lost...This is one of many hands where he just pushed 14k into 2 players with ace high and when the player called he was actaully ahead at the time. If anyone would like anymore hands like this they can pm me, but he did also call an all in by me on the flop when he bet pre flop i called with 109d and i pushed 3k after flop with him betting out and i had flush draw with no pair 10 high and he called wiht k3 off and just king high. somehow making a call like that when he was actually ahead is mind boggling and that is where i find suspicion. Overall apparently doubledrag made a little over 300k in 8 days on ap and was told by a few players the last day he was seen playing how they had sucpicion of him cheating and he mocked them and 5 minutes later proceeded to sit out and has not played since that night. Well until today, i went to go to ap site and whenn i looked i saw doubledrag at the 25/50 nl where he dropped about 120k to a player named romaldo( by betting 9975 and then folding the all in) then went to the 5k sng hu and dumped another 100k or more sitting 4tables and just betting out like he did at the cash tables. To me it sounds very fishy and scary that it's possible that players could have an edge where you don't have a chance to win agianst them. I have played online poker for almost 4 yrs now and have never seen anything like these players shown above and actuallly in my database show that i am down to all of these players. I have talked to several guys at the 200-400 limit and everyone thinks these players above are bad but all of them have are losers against everyone of the above players. I would like to hear some thoughts on some of you guys have played millions of hands online and if they have seen any betting patterns that could result in suspicion of the intergrity of the system.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Yes, just checked PT and he took me for 90 bets in 230 hands.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

all1n you lobsternsake on ap way back?

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Wow this is scary stuff.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Yes.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Also, doubledrag would take 5 seconds preflop every time before he acted, yet not particularly long on any other decision. At first I suspected a bot but then this ridiculous hand happened: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1479525 and when I commented "wtf" he responded straight away.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

What is his showdown win % agianst you?...I watched him play donkofholdem a few days ago and he almost never lost a showdown and seemed to know exactly when to fold..Funny though that session he was up about 60k and i beleive most if not all was off donkofholdem. (that session wasn't very long either and hour or 2)

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

I havent played these guys, but the only time Ive really suspected foul play was again Mark Seif.....who Stuckinpgh blogged about similar bizarre happenings. Given how much Seif has lost in the past couple of years, it's probably unlikely that anything more than he just went on a 1 in 50,000 run against me, but it was mighty odd.

All1n that hand is odd, do u have your entire session v. him available for us to take a look at??

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

I only played 37 hands against him.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

what about v greycat??

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

I'm not going to post a full session but I will have a look at the hands myself. I can send to you too if you like. The main thing I'm noticing is that whenever I hit a strong hand on the turn he c/f's a huge amount.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Steamroller once had 500k on the 150/300 table. Said he wired it in.

Ive watched and played with both him and greycat(although I end up on tilt rather quickly it seems) a fair amount and it IS some of the most bizarre poker I have ever seen.

I have never seen either lose.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

That said, there is this hand in which I make a big river bluff against graycat and he folds, which seems unlikely if he can see my hand: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1369485

But perhaps he did see and thought he'd blow his cover if he capped that river. More likely actually.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Here is a sick hand. http://www.pokerhand.org/?1479597

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

What i think is fishy without looking at the hands and looking strictly at the situation. He was called out for possibly cheating and didn't play another game since that session. Then after he didn't play a game until tonight where he dumped anywhere for 220k to 300k to a no name player. I think it's all weird and the circumstances make me beleive there is foul play involved. I mean if i just started on a site made 300k in 8 days i would continue to play and definetly not risk dumping 250k or something like that to another player risking getting in trouble with absolute.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Both those hands are real odd. I would appreciate you sending me an entire session tho, it's possible from the stuff posted so far that he's just a lunatic.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

might be time for me to cash out from abs for good

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

The most damning piece of evidence I can provide is Graycat is 66/58 preflop in my PT DB, avg 8.2 players at the table.

He goes to showdown 32.5, wins 74%. Obv he is running 22BB/100.

In my lifetime of playing poker, I have never seen anyone who plays that way preflop, have showdown stats such as the above. It'd be one thing if it was like 54 going to showdown, 58 win at showdown; then we could just say he is a LAG on a rush.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

PUNKIN_U - Posts small blind $100
LEAVINGEGYPT - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to PUNKIN_U [Kd 9d]
GRAYCAT - Raises $400 to $400
BERGENISGAY - Folds
TRUTHY - Folds
EZ2PLY - Raises $600 to $600
GEMMER - Folds
MAVERI9 - Folds
SCHDNFRD - Folds
PUNKIN_U - Calls $500
LEAVINGEGYPT - Folds
GRAYCAT - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [2d 8s Qc]
PUNKIN_U - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $200
EZ2PLY - Calls $200
PUNKIN_U - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [2d 8s Qc] [2c]
PUNKIN_U - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $400
EZ2PLY - Raises $800 to $800
PUNKIN_U - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $800 to $1200
EZ2PLY - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [2d 8s Qc 2c] [Ks]
GRAYCAT - Bets $400
EZ2PLY - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GRAYCAT - Shows [5s 4d] (One pair, twos)
EZ2PLY - Shows [As 5d] (One pair, twos)
EZ2PLY Collects $5795 from main pot

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

How many hands is that over?

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

[ QUOTE ]
How many hands is that over?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately only 173. I don't know how quickly showdown stats converge with preflop stats, though considering the two extremes I still think it's damning evidence.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

I don't think the stat means that much. I have 623 hands and he's 28 wtsd 54 win @ sd.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

I think the doubledrag story is the most concerning by far at this point. All the graycat stuff (mainly my own I guess) is fairly circumstantial.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

[ QUOTE ]
The most damning piece of evidence I can provide is Graycat is 66/58 preflop in my PT DB, avg 8.2 players at the table.

He goes to showdown 32.5, wins 74%. Obv he is running 22BB/100.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can anyone take a look at their data from other sites and see if they can find anything similar. I wonder if this is going on other places, too.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

do u guys think they are all the same guy?

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

i think graycat and steamroller are the same person..doubledrag i think was someone different..if which i beleive he concieveably had the ability to read and see someone elses cards he played very agr. and overlooked all players thinking he had the ability to do so. I mean playing the way he did and beating the best players in both nl and limit games for 300k in a week and then dumping everything seemed guilty of something which i really would like to find out. Like Dean said from the few hands we have shown he seems like a lunatic...but to win every session playing this way agianst the best limit players on the site for 100's of thousands i can't see without an edge we do not know about.....Like i said in my first post i trully have never seen any player win so much money and play like as if they knew your hand ever until i saw these players especially doubledrag. I trully hope I am wrong because a'lot of us guys have worked on our game to be able to constistently be profitable..I feel that their is an edge these players had specifically doubledrag, had on all other players, i'm not sure what it intales but i have taken a step back from online poker since i have played him.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

If you are really concerned that they are cheating, datamine them for a while and put together a meaningful sample.

I would be interested in seeing how it pans out.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Well damn it. I was just about to swing a lot of money into Absolute because of their ridiculous high stakes interest program. This makes me think twice. And then a third time. I would love to see a sample size of over 5000 or so hands if anyone has the desire to datamine for that long.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are really concerned that they are cheating, datamine them for a while and put together a meaningful sample.

I would be interested in seeing how it pans out.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Well damn it. I was just about to swing a lot of money into Absolute because of their ridiculous high stakes interest program. This makes me think twice. And then a third time. I would love to see a sample size of over 5000 or so hands if anyone has the desire to datamine for that long.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the chances that these guys continue operating under these sceen names is minimal given the reports of recent chipdumping and this thread. Probably the only way to get a decent sample size on them would be to have a bunch of people combine databases or something.

Also, it looks like if they are in fact seeing other peoples cards, they are likely seeing everyones cards. What is technical feasability of this? To see one persons cards, all it would take would be to install a trojan on their computer, right? But to see everyones cards, they'd basically have to hack the site? If this is possible online poker is probably f*cked if/when it gets out.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are really concerned that they are cheating, datamine them for a while and put together a meaningful sample.

I would be interested in seeing how it pans out.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Well damn it. I was just about to swing a lot of money into Absolute because of their ridiculous high stakes interest program. This makes me think twice. And then a third time. I would love to see a sample size of over 5000 or so hands if anyone has the desire to datamine for that long.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the chances that these guys continue operating under these sceen names is minimal given the reports of recent chipdumping and this thread. Probably the only way to get a decent sample size on them would be to have a bunch of people combine databases or something.

Also, it looks like if they are in fact seeing other peoples cards, they are likely seeing everyones cards. What is technical feasability of this? To see one persons cards, all it would take would be to install a trojan on their computer, right? But to see everyones cards, they'd basically have to hack the site? If this is possible online poker is probably f*cked if/when it gets out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ive had a conversation with two programmers who said its certainly within the realm of possibility that someone could do this, however they have no experience with online poker or whatever measures the sites take against this so who really knows.

One thing ive seen is that neither greycat or steamroller plays very much, at least not from what I see. Seems to me if they were just rich fish they would be at the tables far more, that type just strikes me as more of the "addicted" crowd.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

if they were cheating, they'd want to be playing a lot more too.


and anyone who is clever enough to hack the [censored] a site, i would expect would be clever enough to play in a way that doesnt set off any warning bells.

it's really not hard for them to just play straight forward and crush the games making the occasional brilliant fold, perfectly timed bluff raise, or other things that nobody would notice.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Steamroller told me he was into "oil" and was an executive out of Miami...then a few months later someone asked his occupation he stated he was a moneymanager making 3.5mil and just having fun. Then i watched him play most recently and a railbird asked his occupation and the railbird said is it poker? he put "basically"....why would you wire in 400k on absolute to play the 150/300 limit game? I guess it's possible but he plays just the 10/20nl game too..what's even more interesting is why would you put 400k on absolute if you never lose, i just don't buy it. I would assume he had accumilated that through his winnings on the site. Doubledrag scares me the most though, we will see if any of these players show up at the tables in the next few weeks...if i see any of the same betting patterns with new nicknames i will post their names.

Re: high stakes absolute players
 

Dead,

A tiny bit of puncuation and spacing goes a long way.