Donk of death the river?
 

Pretty good 20/40 game at the Borg. The player in this hand is loose and straightfoward. I was playing with a pro on my right who used the phrase "donk of death" to describe loose passives hitting big draws and being afraid of it getting checked through.

I have red aces in the SB.

3 limps to me, I raise, LP BB calls, limpers call.

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I lead, he raises, two call, I trey, everyone calls.

Turn: T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I bet, he raises, they fold, and I call (I figure he probably has two pair here, maybe a set? He might slowplay a set and pull the trigger later.)

River A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Donk of death?

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

This seems like a good spot to go for a c/r, unless the BB is really super passive and will not bet his likely 2-pair.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

bet out, hope to get raised, obv.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like a good spot to go for a c/r, unless the BB is really super passive and will not bet his likely 2-pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not raising if you bet the river here.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

Is he a good player? Your raise out of SB is likely 10-10+ or AQ+. You are not betting the turn w/JJ or AK (unless its specifically AsKs, and even then...). So, if he is a thinking player, he should figure that the only hand that bets the turn and checks the river that his 2 pair beats is KK. The probability of you having exactly KK is way below 50%. He checks behind unless he hit a set. Bet and get a crying call.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

Grease is also raising QJs and KQs there.

Moreover, a loose-passive has been going crazy vs Grease on every street. There's no way he has just one pair. The only concern is if he was fsd just a Q which is possible considering there were other people still in the pot.

I have nothing against a donk of death, just don't expect to be raised.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

Donk of Death if he's a thinking player because the Ace is very scary for him given your range.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

I doubt QJs or KQs bets this turn having no flush draw, after being raised with 2 cold calls on the flop. I never said BB is raising, I just think he checks behind >50%.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

Definitely bet. Loose passives love to check the river with 2pair if any sort of scare card comes. There is no scarier card than the Ace in this spot. Your hand looks exactly like what it is. I think his range is probably weighted more heavily towards a set, but losing a river bet here would be very bad.

Edit to add-Actually Im not sure if his range is weighted more towards a set. Even a passive player should be raising any Q on the flop.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is he a good player? Your raise out of SB is likely 10-10+ or AQ+. You are not betting the turn w/JJ or AK (unless its specifically AsKs, and even then...). So, if he is a thinking player, he should figure that the only hand that bets the turn and checks the river that his 2 pair beats is KK. The probability of you having exactly KK is way below 50%. He checks behind unless he hit a set. Bet and get a crying call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I think the given SB range is a bit too narrow, thinking more about it I would like to reverse my position and agree with those advocating a bet (AsJs/AsKs don't fit with the flop 3-bet, and KK would likely c/f the river so BB checking behind seems likely indeed).

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

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Definitely bet. Loose passives love to check the river with 2pair if any sort of scare card comes.

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Re: Donk of death the river?
 

The real Donk of Death is jack king of spades; which I have seen in this game.

Sounds like your rivered set got cracked here by a donked straight when he stays around since he hit his color draw on the turn.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The real Donk of Death is jack king of spades; which I have seen in this game.

Sounds like your rivered set got cracked here by a donked straight when he hit his color draw on the turn.

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What makes you think this, when the BB hasn't even acted yet? Villain raised the turn -- loose passives don't do that on a draw. It's the OP who rivered the best hand here.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The real Donk of Death is jack king of spades; which I have seen in this game.

Sounds like your rivered set got cracked here by a donked straight when he stays around since he hit his color draw on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

. . . .what? This is neither possible nor helpful.

Grease, I like the bet because I always like ensuring a bet goes in.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The real Donk of Death is jack king of spades; which I have seen in this game.

Sounds like your rivered set got cracked here by a donked straight when he stays around since he hit his color draw on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

. . . .what? This is neither possible nor helpful.

Grease, I like the bet because I always like ensuring a bet goes in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh its possible, this hand happened to me against Damian (I think that was his name) before he went busto. Only change the 7 to a 5 and the 3 to a deuce on this board to protect the innocent.

Why else would this thread be called the Donk of Death?

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The real Donk of Death is jack king of spades; which I have seen in this game.

Sounds like your rivered set got cracked here by a donked straight when he hit his color draw on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think this, when the BB hasn't even acted yet? Villain raised the turn -- loose passives don't do that on a draw. It's the OP who rivered the best hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I read it wrong. I thought the loose player was to his right and first to act. I should have paid more attention in reading comprehension class.

Anyway, I recieved the Donk of Death in this same type of hand where I rivered the set of aces and the first to act loose player rivered broadway.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

When was that? I've seen set rivered set of Aces beaten by B'way on Friday afternoon.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
When was that? I've seen set rivered set of Aces beaten by B'way on Friday afternoon.

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Over the summer. There probably was one major difference in the hand you saw. You probably saw where the player who rivered the straight was up and down on the flop. My guy was so bad, he just played a K-Jo, and with a Q-x-x board on the flop, called a four bets, two or three bets on the turn when the 10 hit(I don't recall exactly but I was jamming to the max), when he was first to act.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

Definitely bet it. You always want to get one bet in, and he might read your lead as AQ or AT and raise you if he has a set.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This seems like a good spot to go for a c/r, unless the BB is really super passive and will not bet his likely 2-pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, but this is a better spot to bet out, since the ace maybe a scare card if he had a big q, and if he has a set or aces up, u can get a 3 bet out of him by betting out

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

I go for the c/r. He may be loose passive but he's got a big hand and I think its a worth the risk of trying to cr

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

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Grease, I like the bet because I always like ensuring a bet goes in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Results and further questions
 

Ok, so I obviously won the hand after he called my donk and mucked (he said he had two pair though.)

What if I don't improve? Totally player dependent? I could find a fold here against him because he can definitely beat top pair here, but should I make these thin calls anyways in case he has that 5% brain damage line?

What if the board pairs low? C/R and fold to a trey? Too fancy?

Re: Results and further questions
 

he has 2 pair or a set. c/r because he's not raising if you donk

whoever said KJss is possible has problems reading.

Re: Results and further questions
 

There are cases, though rare at these limits, and usually not with this kind of a player, when he is semibluff-raising with a pair and straight and/or flush draw on a turn. There usually is enough money in the pot to call the river u/i even though you overpair is no good most of the time. I would bet/fold rather than CR/fold if the board pairs.

Re: Results and further questions
 

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when he is semibluff-raising with a pair and straight draw

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this isn't omaha so it's not possible for him to have a pair + straight draw on this board

Re: Results and further questions
 

It never ceases to amaze me what passive live players will check behind with on the river. A couple of months ago in the Bellagio 30 I had set over set 2x (1 time I had the over and the other the under), both times they checked behind neither time was the board at all scary, i.e. the nut hands would make no sense given the action. I have sworn off trying to cr loose passives on the river.

Re: Results and further questions
 

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It never ceases to amaze me what passive live players will check behind with on the river. ... I have sworn off trying to cr loose passives on the river.

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Agreed. Many bad players read the board at each street w/o considering the prior action. That's a prime reason why they often incorrectly miss value bets. That's part of the reason why bet/3 > c/r here.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

This really feels like two pair(likely QT) more than a set. It seems likely that sets either a) cap the flop after that action or b) wait until the turn to raise.

Given that I bet since alot of loose passives check behind on the river since a scare card came and "the pot is big enough anyway". Haven't this checked through would make me sick.

Re: Donk of death the river?
 

passive players are not raising this river without a straight which in this case he clearly does not have. I would bet here since as already mentioned it is likely the passive player will check behind here.

If the board paired I would only check raise a more aggressive non thinking type player. Thinking players will check behind here and may not pay you off even if they did bet.

Re: Results and further questions
 

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this isn't omaha so it's not possible for him to have a pair + straight draw on this board

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I realize that. It is my understanding that OP was asking a more general question, not relative to the this specific board, so I answered in a more general way.