3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

We're 5 or 6 handed with sklansky on my direct right and a couple of young players at the table. The rest of the table hasn't shown up yet. Blinds are 25/50 and I think we started with 60bbs. I've been opening almost every hand for the first 2 orbits. Both young guys on my left have reraised me once.

Villain, on my direct left, is a bad player who played this hand about 5 min prior to the one in question:

Sklansky raises, I fold, bad player calls in the SB, BB calls. Flop Q47 with a flush draw and bad player leads out, sklansky calls (with 44 wtf). Turn 8o, he checks and calls sklansky's bet, river 5o, he leads out for 1/2 pot-ish and sklansky calls and bad player tables QTo.

Anyway, bad player limps, another limper, SB folds, I check Q4cc in the BB.

Flop: 4oKc9c. I lead out for pot, bad player raises to 450 or so, limper folds, I make it 1250, he shoves and i call.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

bad starting stacks are 6k the call is almost as gross as the 3bet.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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bad starting stacks are 6k the call is almost as gross as the 3bet.

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really? no way i'm folding what can definitely be 14 outs after i 3-bet for 120bb stacks

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

totally standard.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

I think I just call his raise. Once you three bet it's a really easy call. This type of villain never folds after raising the flop and in this softa field I would rather get it in with tons of equity as opposed to racing

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

standard

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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bad starting stacks are 6k the call is almost as gross as the 3bet.

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really? no way i'm folding what can definitely be 14 outs after i 3-bet for 120bb stacks

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very few people in this tourney are putting in 120bbs in an unraise pot with a hand you have more 11 outs on.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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bad starting stacks are 6k the call is almost as gross as the 3bet.

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really? no way i'm folding what can definitely be 14 outs after i 3-bet for 120bb stacks

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very few people in this tourney are putting in 120bbs in an unraise pot with a hand you have more 11 outs on.

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my thoughts...TP is like the bottom of Villains range.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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bad starting stacks are 6k the call is almost as gross as the 3bet.

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really? no way i'm folding what can definitely be 14 outs after i 3-bet for 120bb stacks

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very few people in this tourney are putting in 120bbs in an unraise pot with a hand you have more 11 outs on.

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my thoughts...TP is like the bottom of Villains range.

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i would guess his range is two pair+ (so like K4+). he never has a naked K here.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

Just flat call the reraise to 450. Don't 3-bet, because you can't call a push.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut.

I don;t know if you have 14 outs.

I try to get there cheaply against a bad player who is known to stack off with weak hands. If you hit you're good, and if you don't, you lose the min. But no reason to force a big pot against a bad player. He'll pay you off when you hit anyway.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

wiat wtf

if starting stacks are 3k i like

if they are 6k i dont like

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

wait, ansky is in israel?

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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Just flat call the reraise to 450. Don't 3-bet

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It's a fancy hand. But, you aren't that much ahead against his pushing ranges. The worst hand for his push - he could have nut flush draw and pair up his Ace or kicker on the turn/river.

As played, fold. Save 4K and you can still play poker at 25/50.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

Well it looks like you are up against two pair here like always. I might just call the raise...if you raise to 1250 calling a push is obviously an obligation.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

I think 3betting is horrid, but if you 3bet it's because you can snapcall and gamble so you can go play 100/200 NL or something. Call the raise, play a turn. You have a ton of implied odds.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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I think 3betting is horrid, but if you 3bet it's because you can snapcall and gamble so you can go play 100/200 NL or something. Call the raise, play a turn. You have a ton of implied odds.

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Absolutely spot on.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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You have a ton of implied odds.

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Not really.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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You have a ton of implied odds.

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Not really.

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True, b/c villain will probably check behind on the turn if the flush card hits and when hero tries to bet the river his hand really looks like a flush (and could get paid off anyway). But I wouldn't say the implied odds are huge.

Leading a club turn would be pretty cool but either way I doubt you win a big pot if you make your hand.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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Blinds are 25/50 and I think we started with 60bbs. I've been opening almost every hand for the first 2 orbits. Both young guys on my left have reraised me once.





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why are you raising this much in the first level of a donkament?

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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You have a ton of implied odds.

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Not really.

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You have negative implied odds. You bust if you make a flush and villain makes a higher one.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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Blinds are 25/50 and I think we started with 60bbs. I've been opening almost every hand for the first 2 orbits. Both young guys on my left have reraised me once.





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why are you raising this much in the first level of a donkament?

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get out of here dood he's better than like almost everyone in this field prob and it's a 3k tournament he wants to get big or go home i would be raising like 65% of my hands at htis level not as many as krantz obv i'm not that goot

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

i guess we started with 6k, 25/50 blinds. i'm raising a lot because the table is 5 handed (not everyone has shown up yet) and because i'm a damn nasty superfreak at this game

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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i guess we started with 6k, 25/50 blinds. i'm raising a lot because the table is 5 handed (not everyone has shown up yet) and because i'm a damn nasty superfreak at this game

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a 5handed table is a very good reason to be raising frequently and aejones you are a doll

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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You have a ton of implied odds.

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Not really.

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You have negative implied odds. You bust if you make a flush and villain makes a higher one.

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Aces suck, they're hard to fold and your opponent can make a better hand.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

We definitely don't have negative implied odds. A higher flush draw can be discounted a decent amount because people play so passively live. Most of the time he's got a strong made hand that he doesn't want to fold.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

I agree that the 3-bet is probably unwarranted and not the most profitable line to take. I do think we have more implied odds than betgo and ansky are leading on here because the guy is a bad player. He friggin' block bet the river with a 4-card straight out there with TPMK against the rock of all rocks. I think we're busting the guy if we bet smart if a club hits on the turn (and we don't get an action killer on the river... but even then, he'll probably block/call with his KTo).

While gobbo was joking, I think, it's true that your life equity is highest by gambling in this spot and then crushing the nearby NL game or building your stack as a 60/40 dog. If you remove other games as part of your equity, then I think the best line is to call his raise, and either call/fold the turn depending on his action and the card.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

over played. This early in the tournament don't get it in on a coin flip. I would just call the raise and keep the pot small. If you hit your card, pressumably you will be able to get Villains money anyways.

Once you make the re-raise your are pot committed. Even if he has a set, you now have the odds (but its close).

Added: Wait, do we have 60 BBs or 120 BBs? Makes a huge difference. If its 120 BBs should not call his push.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

I guess this is 120 BBs. In any case, this is an example of an MTT player not adjusting to deep money. With short stacks in typical online or daily/weekly live MTTs, you can treat pair and flush draw as the nuts on the flop.

Similarly, in most cases, you can treat AK/JJ/QQ is the nuts preflop with less than 40xBB. With deep stacks, you are usually in bad shape when you get allin preflop with these hands.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

I just call the raise due to the awkward stack-sizes..

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

The reason ppl think we have good implied odds is because we already know villain 4bet shoved. Given what we know at the time that villain makes a raise on the flop, we DO NOT have good implied odds.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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The reason ppl think we have good implied odds is because we already know villain 4bet shoved. Given what we know at the time that villain makes a raise on the flop, we DO NOT have good implied odds.

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This isn't a cash game. Old people's raising ranges in tournaments are extremely tight here. I think at WORST he has the nut flush draw, but he probably has K4, K9 or a set.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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In any case, this is an example of an MTT player not adjusting to deep money.

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hmmmm

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

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The reason ppl think we have good implied odds is because we already know villain 4bet shoved. Given what we know at the time that villain makes a raise on the flop, we DO NOT have good implied odds.

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This isn't a cash game. Old people's raising ranges in tournaments are extremely tight here. I think at WORST he has the nut flush draw, but he probably has K4, K9 or a set.

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First of all, people raise just a king here all the time, i have no idea what you are talking about. Secondly, who said villain was old? Third, we do not have good implied odds against 2 pair.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

We know he's bad. 99% of old players are bad. He's probably old. I know that's not correct logic, but you know it's probably true. We know he's bad.

People don't raise here with any king in a live tournament. It's taken me a while of playing live tournaments to get that, but they really don't. A common live player's raising range here for value is extremely tight. Some people might do it with air. If he is raising any random king because he's bad, he's unlikely to fold it once you call, turn is the 7c and you c/r the [censored] out of him.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

what the hell is that first paragraph, honestly?

And your whole absolute read is absurd, no general read on those over the age of 45 can be that set in stone.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

It's obviously not set in stone, but I have found it to be true against most people. This is how one usually forms a range against these people, we usually use our past experiences. I would say his raising range on this flop is usually very tight because that's just how people play.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

Fight! Fight!

And personally, I don't care at all about what the actual action was. We have pair + FD, with shallow stacks, in a donkament, vs a random unknown.

My current kick is making every decision 10000x easier than everyone else likes to, but whatever, still think it fits here.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

people raise a king here all the time. they are ahead of us at the moment. they want to find out where they're at (a lot of people on this board do , too). when we 3-bet them, we tell htme where they're at, even though it's not really where they're at. i like 3-betting and just calling the shove and gambling because if we flat it's just way too obvious when we make our hand.

Re: 3k NL WSOP - standard? overplayed?
 

id aggressively call the raise to 450 and then check in the dark to create confusion