200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

Villain is Dilith, one of the better players at this level. He's very solid and doesn't get out of line too often.

Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 7 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $520.30
Hero (BTN): $414.55
SB: $107.40
BB: $207.15
UTG: $207.70
UTG+1: $200
MP: $200.45

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $8</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $26</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $110</font>, Hero calls $84
<font color="blue"> Should I even call the 4-bet? Because he raised from the CO and I 3-bet from the button, my range is fairly wide. Given this, his 4-betting range should be wider than just AA/KK as well. I think he can definitely have AK, or maybe a lesser hand (unlikely). I'm thinking that by calling his 4-bet, I will freeze him from putting more money into the pot unless he has AA/KK or hits a good flop. After I call his 4-bet he should put me on a very tight range, and probably won't bluff with a whiffed AK or whatever. But maybe I should just fold?</font>

Flop: ($223) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $177</font>, Hero folds
<font color="blue"> Ok, nh... </font>

Results: $223 Pot ($3 Rake)
CO mucked and WON $220 (+$110 NET)

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

One theory type arguement that I agree with for this hand..

If you are going to fold to a cbet on this flop, your preflop call is burning money.


This argument goes to [censored] if you think hes going to check weaker hands on the flop, but I feel like hes going to cbet it with his entire range.

So thus your plan of calling preflop becomes very very bad if hes cbetting this type of flop texture with almost his entire range and you are folding to said bet.

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

Another note is that I think his 4betsize is indicative of not AA-KK.

Also the fact that he is opening from the CO, knows you are a good player who will 3bet him liberally from the button, and is capable of playing back...

I'd be more inclined to call and shove over his flop bet.



Basically

Call/Shove over cbet &gt; fold preflop &gt; call/fold to cbet

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

Shouldn't my call look very strong to him?

Is he really going to c-bet AK into a range of AA/KK/QQ only (what I represent)?

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

push preflop

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
push preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

So we can get called by KK+ and fold out everything else? Cool

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't my call look very strong to him?

Is he really going to c-bet AK into a range of AA/KK/QQ only (what I represent)?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is going to put you on such a tight range and would thus not be betting this flop with the bottom 1/2 of his range, then call preflop, fold to flop bet looks good.

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I will freeze him from putting more money into the pot unless he has AA/KK

[/ QUOTE ]
I think your read is pretty solid and from the action it does indeed look like hes representing AA-KK here. I put my self in his shoes for this. He knows you have a relatively big hand on the flop. He can't bet unless hes fairly sure he has the best hand.

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he is going to put you on such a tight range and would thus not be betting this flop with the bottom 1/2 of his range

[/ QUOTE ]
I think so. He knows I play looser than him, but I don't just call off 200BB with crap. My hand should look like QQ+ to him after the pf action IMO. The ironic thing is that being deep may have saved me some money, because at 100BB deep I'm stacking off for sure.

Maybe I shouldn't have posted this hand because now people will try to bluff me when deep. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he is going to put you on such a tight range and would thus not be betting this flop with the bottom 1/2 of his range

[/ QUOTE ]
I think so.

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then i like your line

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
One theory type arguement that I agree with for this hand..

If you are going to fold to a cbet on this flop, your preflop call is burning money.


This argument goes to [censored] if you think hes going to check weaker hands on the flop, but I feel like hes going to cbet it with his entire range.

So thus your plan of calling preflop becomes very very bad if hes cbetting this type of flop texture with almost his entire range and you are folding to said bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. If he 4 bets you, dont you think he's following up on the turn? Im not saying im advocating calling here, but...man if youre putting him on a hand, put him on it. If he 4 bets you, and your holding AA or KK, dont you just push? Pretty much puts you on a narrow range also! Meaning, he can comfortably follow up on flop.

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he 4 bets you, and your holding AA or KK, dont you just push?

[/ QUOTE ]

no

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he 4 bets you, and your holding AA or KK, dont you just push?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. I'm flat-calling AA as well because pushing allows him to correctly fold.

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

Fwiw I don't like 3betting in this spot. I would flat call and play it postflop, but perhaps thats a leak. I think folding preflop to the 4bet is the best play. If you don't do that then you should shove this flop imo.

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fwiw I don't like 3betting in this spot. I would flat call and play it postflop, but perhaps thats a leak. I think folding preflop to the 4bet is the best play. If you don't do that then you should shove this flop imo.

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errr why don't you 3bet?

I don't understand why you dont like getting lots of $ in the pot with a huge range in position against someone who knows you have a huge range.

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fwiw I don't like 3betting in this spot. I would flat call and play it postflop, but perhaps thats a leak. I think folding preflop to the 4bet is the best play. If you don't do that then you should shove this flop imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

errr why don't you 3bet?

I don't understand why you dont like getting lots of $ in the pot with a huge range in position against someone who knows you have a huge range.

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b/c dilith is one of the best players at NL200 and probably isn't stealing too wide with you one the btn. Also, his calling range is not huge although its big enough to make it profitable, but you're in a really [censored] spot if he 4bets. I said its probably a leak.

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fwiw I don't like 3betting in this spot. I would flat call and play it postflop, but perhaps thats a leak. I think folding preflop to the 4bet is the best play. If you don't do that then you should shove this flop imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
What would be your 3-betting range here? If it's only AA/KK, then you might as well not bother 3-betting those either because you'd give away your hand.

If anything my 3-betting range here is wider compared to 100 BB.

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fwiw I don't like 3betting in this spot. I would flat call and play it postflop, but perhaps thats a leak. I think folding preflop to the 4bet is the best play. If you don't do that then you should shove this flop imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
What would be your 3-betting range here? If it's only AA/KK, then you might as well not bother 3-betting those either because you'd give away your hand.

If anything my 3-betting range here is wider compared to 100 BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably either not 3bet him too often at all here. AA/KK some and then some suited connectors and mid pairs.

Re: 200 NL, QQ kinda deep against 4-bet.
 

I know that Dilith will 4 bet a little lighter than AA/KK but for for 200+bb effective stacks I am not sure dilith would be getting this out of line here with out having a minimum of KK in this spot.
I think when he 4 bet you to $110 pre flop he was saying I have AA and don't want to risk 200bb after the flop against another good player fold now.