TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

UTG is very tough semi-LAG/TAG, one of the best posters in this forum.

CO is 52/19 overaggro showdown monkey. He has been running fairly well though with some of his retarded plays.

OTB is 26/18, no reads.

My own image is probably not great, I've been running kinda bad and haven't entered a lot of pots. When in a pot I've usually been the aggressor preflop but ended up playing fairly passive postflop and probably made a bad river call or two.

Yes I know I could have found a better table, and looking at it now, I'm not entirely sure why I sat there.

What's your flop/turn line in this hand?

Party Poker (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="red">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">MP folds</font>, CO calls, OTB calls, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">BB folds</font>, UTG calls, CO calls, OBT calls.

Flop (13SB): 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="red">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="red">CO raises</font>, OTB calls...

Also, does it make a difference how capable of folding UTG is?

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

easy raise for me, limit the field if you can, a 2+2:er always tries to peel flops with overs and is likely to fold for 2SB. I would raise even if UTG never would fold since I believe our hand is strong due to pf-action.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

3

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

And why?

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

I don´t reraise preflop for reasons stated in earlier threads. Three aggressive players hack you to pieces postflop when you reraise and don´t hit a set.
I know I get hammered as usual for having that opinion so be my guest.
As played I go into call mode on flop and the fold button is starting to look big and red like it wants to be pushed.
Buttons cold call is awful for us.Our only hope is that he hasn´t got what his cold call says.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

3 or 4 players to the turn, not much of a difference. I would call and try to check raise a non scary turn.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don´t reraise preflop for reasons stated in earlier threads. Three aggressive players hack you to pieces postflop when you reraise and don´t hit a set.
I know I get hammered as usual for having that opinion so be my guest.
As played I go into call mode on flop and the fold button is starting to look big and red like it wants to be pushed.
Buttons cold call is awful for us.Our only hope is that he hasn´t got what his cold call says.

[/ QUOTE ]
I asked this question in the other thread but never got an answer: What hands are you reraising here preflop?

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is very tough semi-LAG/TAG, one of the best posters in this forum.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oink?

I am worried about the button given his TAGgy stats but let's face it, he's coldcalled twice in this hand already so perhaps I shouldn't be.

The pot is too big for you to get UTG's likely overcards to fold by threebetting. He's going to have backdoor bits and pieces as well so he's seeing fourth street, no doubt.

I would think this could be "wait for a safe turn" time, except that there aren't any safe turn cards really. I am sure we have too much hand to fold unless there's heavy action and the board gets nastier, but I'm worried about our equity - not sure it's better than fair-share - and I don't see that we can protect our hand, so I think I just try to get this one to showdown.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 or 4 players to the turn, not much of a difference. I would call and try to check raise a non scary turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what is a non-scary turn? by my count A,K,Q,J,8,7,6,5,4,3
are all scary cards. So we're basically looking for a T,9, or duece?

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

Michael you know what I think.

3-bet.

UTG will be faced with 7.5:1 if you 3-bet. No way in hell anyone should be calling with overcards getting those odds not closing the action with a LAG behind and the button coldcalling 2 on that board.

Edit: And you have good eq

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

I reraise QQ-AA against an aggressive or real loose line-up.
I transform to an aggressor and CR flop if the flop seems favorable and the betting comes from the right places (read from the later positions)so I can cut down the field.In this case that is harder since UTG raised preflop but sometimes he checks a 4-way flop since he has two players acting behind him.
I have a PFR of 18-19% and I mainly raise for folding equity.And I don´t think that we have enough of that in this hand to raise preflop.
I don´t think our EV for raising is big enough to overcome the problems we face being OOP against this crowd with this type of hand.I think having the initiative magnifies our problems.


I reraise 99+ against a tight or more passive line-up.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

How did you get 7.5-1? I'm getting 21-2=10.5-1. One of us can't count...

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

Yeah, I know your reasons for not raising preflop, let's not start up that discussion again. One thing though, you'll be able to make a shutout c/r next to never here since UTG is pretty much never checking the flop. For you to be able to shut people out you need to have the LAG in CO raise UTG's c-bet and have OTB fold and then you can c/3-bet.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 or 4 players to the turn, not much of a difference. I would call and try to check raise a non scary turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

raise a third ten you mean?

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How did you get 7.5-1? I'm getting 21-2=10.5-1. One of us can't count...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that's what I got and why I thought UTG wouldn't fold anything really.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

dont forget the duece

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

Maybe so. But then I prefer to CR the field on this flop anyway.Since our equity has skyrocketed and we still get as many bets in as preflop. And we don´t have to check/fold a lot of boards.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How did you get 7.5-1? I'm getting 21-2=10.5-1. One of us can't count...

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad.

I remembered it as 7.5:1 when we discussed it earlier.

10.5:1 is still close enough to expect him to fold IMO. He is not closing the action and he has to hate what he is seeing so far.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe so. But then I prefer to CR the field on this flop anyway.Since our equity has skyrocketed and we still get as many bets in as preflop. And we don´t have to check/fold a lot of boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This assumes UTG will c-bet any2. How can you expect him to do that in a 4 or 5 way pot?

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

Our eq. has skyrocketed on this flop??? I haven't done any stoving but I think this is dead wrong given the ranges I put UTG plus the cold callers on.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe so. But then I prefer to CR the field on this flop anyway.Since our equity has skyrocketed and we still get as many bets in as preflop. And we don´t have to check/fold a lot of boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This assumes UTG will c-bet any2. How can you expect him to do that in a 4 or 5 way pot?

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To be fair, this is my assumption not Apanages. Read his last 2 or 3 posts and what he's saying is that he'd C/R this flop no matter whehter a flop bet comes from early or late position.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

Ok, I'm gonna bump this because I want to see more replies about whether to take a call/raise turn or 3-bet line.

And also because I'd really like to see Apanage prove that our equity has skyrocketed on this flop!

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

I like 3 bet to knock out UTG+1's overcards plus the fact that we dont want to risk the turn getting checked through if we go for a c/r.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

Ok, I'm definitely not saying a 3-bet is wrong but do you think UTG should/will fold and do you seriously think this turn will get checked through with this lineup?

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

I'd 3bet for value and be happy for UTG to fold hands like AJ and KQ, which he will do provided we don't flash our TT to him.

UTG calling this 3bet even with AK is pretty questionable since his outs are tainted and vulnerable to redraws, he's not closing the action and has poor position to extract value if he does hit.

Just 3bet with your equity advantage and brace yourself to play poker on the turn and river.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm definitely not saying a 3-bet is wrong but do you think UTG should/will fold and do you seriously think this turn will get checked through with this lineup?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. It doesnt really matter, im happy to get in 1bb on the flop and maybe 1 on the turn although Id rather have him fold this flop. By calling hes almost certainly coming along, but he might fold for 2.

2. id rather not take that risk.

EDIT: I didnt realize that UTG was a tough 2p2'er. Now im pretty sure that he is folding most overcards for 2 more.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

he's gonna fold any two suited broadways that currently have bdfds. also any other two unsuited overcards that made bad flop calls in the first place. there is no doubt in my mind he will fold all of these hands. calling two more is amazingly bad since tt is seriously like the worst hand in your range.

3-bet now to get those out and because 3-betting is going to help you play specifically against the button. if he ever wakes up, he has AA beaten. as of now i put him on like 55 or T9s or something, but he could have a set.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

FWIW

UTG is me (LOL at good player!). I am pretty sure I fold the flop in the first place with hands like KQo, QJs no bdfd and other weakish overcard hands.

So the overcard range Hero wants to fold isnt that wide. If I have AKs with a bdfd I would be tempted to call 2 more bets, but prolly fold if I took the time to think about it.


As I remember the hand I had A8s with a bdfd and I was a bit surprised to see Michael not 3-betting the flop which I at the time thought was the best play.


BTW I disagree that there is no good turns for Hero. If he calls and the turn is a J or a Q he can check and see what UTG (me) does. He should know that I would bet out if and only if the turn helps me. So if he checks and I check he can safely raise a bet from the donk IMO - likewise if I bet a Q turn he can safely fold.

I still think its a 3-bet but I am not as confident as I initially was because the fact that Mvoss knows its me makes it easier for him to play the turn if he calls.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

Ok, I actually posted the hand because I thought I may very well have misplayed it.

I did call the flop intending to raise a turn bet from CO (given that UTG hadn't bet) if a good card fell and I think there are more of those than the people who have posted so far in this thread do.

At the time I didn't see Oink folding a lot of hands to a 3-bet, his range should be rather heavily weighted towards overcards with a BDFD here, and I didn't think he'd fold any of those to a 3-bet, nor do I think he should. I also pretty much hated to see OTB cold calling.

I pretty much agree with what Oink said about the hand and I am leaning towards a 3-bet, but I don't at all think this is clear cut which is why I posted it. Maybe it is easy to better players, I'd just like for someone better than me to explain why the advantages of 3-betting the flop outweigh the advantages of waiting for the turn to raise.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

overcards with bdfds have to fold the flop. A8s is the only one that probably stays.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
overcards with bdfds have to fold the flop. A8s is the only one that probably stays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 10.5:1 it is close with AKs with bdfd - certainly a call I could make when playing too many tables. I agree that its an easy fold with QJs bdfd.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

you dont have AKs.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

baaah. No I dont. Good point

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

dog i am awesome

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

To all, don't trust Oink when he says he's folding. Calling may be bad, but that's what he does [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

Oh, I forgot to add:

I expected Oink not to fold and that may very well be wrong, but if this is in fact right is it best to wait for the turn? I guess the question I'm asking is, did I play the hand right given my assumptions or do I just suck.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

The flop is good because a good player is going to check through here with whiffed overcards. With the button cold calling it's time to raise again. This hits a lot of his cold calling range, but it generally hits it for a draw or top pair.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The flop is good because a good player is going to check through here with whiffed overcards. With the button cold calling it's time to raise again. This hits a lot of his cold calling range, but it generally hits it for a draw or top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't really make sense to me, who does what and when now???

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The flop is good because a good player is going to check through here with whiffed overcards. With the button cold calling it's time to raise again. This hits a lot of his cold calling range, but it generally hits it for a draw or top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't really make sense to me, who does what and when now???

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I misread the pre-flop action. The flop is an easy raise because the CO is clueless and Oink's hand is face up. Also, the button cold called which makes it standard.

Re: TT in big multiway pot, how do you play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I misread the pre-flop action. The flop is an easy raise because the CO is clueless and Oink's hand is face up. Also, the button cold called which makes it standard.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why does buttons cold call make it standard? And could you put Oink on a range?

I'm not asking these questions to be a dick, I'm genuinely interested.