How should I play overpairs oop?
 

How do I play overpairs out of position? What is the line to take, where you can still get some cash out of your overpairs (as you
are supposed to) but prevent yourself form stacking off against namely sets and two pairs but also straights and better hands?

Take a look at this hand. I didn’t know much about Villain at the time, but I had the feeling that he was a decent player. The reasonable way to play it would be cc turn, cf river – I didn’t, maybe because I didn’t know Villian very well, and I simple got to charge opponent for my overpairs. I should at least have folded the river, but on the other hand, you can’t fold every overpair just because the opponent shows aggression, and you also need to get some cash out of those overpiars, they should give you a lot of money in the long run, and the only way to get those money is by betting them. You can hear i don't quite know the right line her, so what is the line to take?

Maybe I'm just being naive because I have resently been playing NL100 and 200, where you could bet your overpairs on all 3 streets, and just get called, with profit. I very rarely see that happening anymore, in other words this line is not +EV anymore.

No IQ poker 3.00/6.00, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | <font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($423.07)
SB <font color="#C00000">Hero ($1761.75)</font>
BB ($594.00)
UTG ($600.00)
UTG+1 ($1269.08)
CO <font color="#C00000">CO ($696.00)</font>

Preflop: Hero is in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO raises to 24.00, 1 fold, Hero raises to 60.00, 1 fold, CO calls 39.00.

Flop (132.00) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 86.00, CO calls 86.00.

Turn (304.00) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 160.00, CO calls 160.00.

River (624.00) 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, CO moves all-in for 387.00, Hero calls 387.00

CO shows 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero shows K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

CO wins 1398.00 with Three of a kind, Three's

Since a straight is not possible on this flop, villain can almost only have a set, or slowplayed aces is an unlikely possibility. A bad player could have A9s. Ofcourse you see some calls with overcards here too, because I c-bet a lot, I don’t necessarily have anything in this situation. Anyway the most likely thing my opponent is having is a set. So another time I would cc turn cf river. If there had been a J or a Q on the table instead of the 9, I could have been betting the turn half pot, because some bad players would call here preflop with AQ (not that bad) and AJ.

Another similar hand:
Villain is loose passive. My bet on the turn is ofcourse a blunder, there is so many hands I am behind. Normally I should cc the turn, cf river, like the other hand. I am ahead of draws on the turn, and that is basically it. Villain could be betting a draw, so normally I can take one bet on the turn. That is against most villians anyway, against this particular rather passiv guy, the right line to take is probably cf turn.

No IQ poker 3.00/6.00, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | <font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button <font color="#C00000">Button ($869.62)</font>
SB Hero ($905.00)
BB ($600.00)
UTG ($237.85)
UTG+1 ($1316.25)
CO ($1056.64)

Preflop: Hero is in the SB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG raises to 24.00, 2 folds, Button calls 24.00, Hero raises to 75.00, 2 folds, Button calls 54.00.

Flop (186.00) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets 95.00, Button calls 95.00.

Turn (376.00) K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 180.00, Button calls 180.00.

River (736.00) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Button moves all-in for 516.62, 1 fold

Button shows 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Button wins 1252.62 with A fullhouse, Six's and Eight's

What do you think?

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

Your bets seem pretty weak, i usually raise 3-4x times their raise preflop and try to cbet 2/3-4/5 of the pot.
I think that once you flop an overpair with QQ+ in a 3bet pot youre usually stacking off unless the board is sick coordinated or villain is really tight.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

Bet all-in in hand 1.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

Shove or fold PF so you're never OOP ldo

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

Your 3-bet sizing is absolutely atrocious in both hands.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

3bet more in both hands. c/c river in hand 1 is terrible.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

Not to sound like a jerk, but this is way too broad of a question to get any meaningful replies. But basically, by 3betting so small you give your opponents great odds to call with speculative hands. For example, in the first hand villain would have to be retarded to fold 33 there. He'll get to play the hand IP and he has a much better idea of what you hold than vice versa.

Aside from that, what kind of response are you looking for other than "learn to read hands better"?

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

3bet larger pre, shove river hand 1

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

a few too many arrogant answers.

@cbboy
absolutely atrocious!
- why not say the 3-bets are a bad size and should be (what ever size you recommend) because I have to bet at least pot and I am oop, so preferably more - Something constructive, without arrogance.

@chumofchance
Aside from that, what kind of response are you looking for other than "learn to read hands better"?
- it is just completely arrogant. Yes, you sound a bit like a jerk just there - congratulations. But your explanation is good though.

I'm almost tired of asking questions in here, because I know that I will get arrogant answers. Still I do get answers and that is better than nothing. But it is a shame.

Thank you Suwalski for a constructive answer that is not arrogant.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
a few too many arrogant answers.

@cbboy
absolutely atrocious!
- why not say the 3-bets are a bad size and should be (what ever size you recommend) because I have to bet at least pot and I am oop, so preferably more - Something constructive, without arrogance.

@chumofchance
Aside from that, what kind of response are you looking for other than "learn to read hands better"?
- it is just completely arrogant. Yes, you sound a bit like a jerk just there - congratulations. But your explanation is good though.

I'm almost tired of asking questions in here, because I know that I will get arrogant answers. Still I do get answers and that is better than nothing. But it is a shame.

Thank you Suwalski for a constructive answer that is not arrogant.

[/ QUOTE ]

No arrogance there. But your right. I apologize. I should have said whats better. A good guideline to follow is make it 3x their open IP and 4x OOP.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

raise more pf... run better. this isn't hard

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

hand 1 almost 4x PF r/r...shove river his calling range will be wider than his value shoving range

hand 2) 4.5x r/r w/ caller in the middle

and stop 1/2 potting every street

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

Ok, you are forgiven. Thanks for the elaboration.

Wouldn't it be correct to bet pot in position and 25% more oop. So the raise must take in account the number of callers of the initial raise. x3 in position and x4 oop are a good guideline when there is only one opponent. When there is more, we have to make a calculation of what to bet in order to bet pot in position and 25% more oop.

Ok suppose we had reraised to $96 in the first hand. I seems most people here can agree on that it would be a good size raise. That would make villain pay $72 to see the flop. In order to set mine he has to have more than 7.5:1 (reversed chances to hit a set) in the shortest of our stacks compared to the price of the call, in order to make if profitable. He has $600 left, so that is 600:72 ~ 9:1. So at first sight he has good enough odds to still call with a small pair, but as good players we do not only reraise with the nuts, and he cannot always count on that we will stack off with them to his set, when he does hit. So the raise is still fine.

Most of us can agree on that line. Let’s say he calls anyway. We then bet 2/3 on the flop. So the scenario is as follows:

SB Hero($1762)
CO($696)

Preflop Hero is in SB with Kc Kd
CO raises to 24$, Hero reraises to $96, CO calls

Flop ($198) 9d 2h 3s
Hero bets $135, CO calls

What is the line to take now folks?

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

shove

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

already said but your 3betting should be bigger, usually a little bit more than the pot size. Also, you should be betting about 2/3 pot on the flop, and getting it AI with KK there on the turn there.
Hand 2 I am bet/folding the turn and if he calls probably check/folding. Against this villain there are a ton of draws so I like charging him for them especially if he is playing them passively.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

3 BET BIGGER OOP plz.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

When 3 betting you should at least make it pot when in position and slightly more than pot when out of postion that way your not giving hands like 33 or 68s odds to call. When i get a player calling a 3 bet I usually put them on a range of hands like AK,JJ,or QQ, sometimes players will get tricky with AA and trap but more often than not if ur up agaist AA or KK the $ is going all in.The second hand you made a 3x raise more than the 1st hand but with the utg limpers $ in the pot you again gave the button odds to call.Anytime you get a call on flop and turn then a shove any overpair is probably behind.Lets make an Ex. of hand # two. blinds at 3-6 UTG raises to 24, button calls 24, pot size now 57$ you raise it to $100 remember ur out of position. now utg folds and button has to call $76. at that point we all know any utg raise is usually indicates a strong hand and now ur making a real raise and you putting some real pressure on the button and theres no way the 68s makes the call.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your 3-bet sizing is absolutely atrocious in both hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

@Prator
"Shove" - an explanition here would be nice. It's kind of hard to get anything out of this comment. What are the strategy behind this? let's hear!

@Annex21
"AI with KK on turn." Same thing as Preator. Why? I would say that there is a great chance that we are behind on the turn. Many villians would slowplay their set here and just call. So what is the strategy, if we have raised enough on the flop, we are not folding our kings (our overpair). That is esentially what you guys saying. So if we have raised enough on the flop, we are not folding our overpair? some strategy behind this would be nice. Or else it is useless.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

the reason you arent going to get great elaborate thought out responses is because you are making basic bet sizing mistakes and asking about very standard situations that anyone who has a basic grasp of how to win above 100nl should know. its harsh but its truth.

That being said, raise more preflop, and run better.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

You are probably right. It is just a shame that you are not allowed to make mistakes. If you are not allowed to make mistakes you cannot develop. Period.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

the 3bet sizing in these hands hurt my head

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

A different spin on these hands...

Hand #1:
First of all: You need to get better reads on your opponents before playing too tricky. Thus, the three-bet was too small because you are not narrowing this unread players range enough..

Nevertheless, is this the kind of player who is going to float you for two streets with complete air? His shove on the river there is either a bluff or a better hand than yours..
If he's bluffing and puts you on something like AK or weak pockets, it makes more sense to semi-bluff that turn and put you to a tougher decision... In most cases, villain expects you to bet the river after flatcalling the turn, so this is definitely not air.

To a good player like the villain here, it is rather obvious after $160 on the turn that you have a big hand and there's no value in SHOVING this riv for him with QQ, JJ or A9. QQ probably 4-bets you preflop as well, limiting that option.

Put these pieces together and we can easily fold on the river here and save $387.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

Thanks for your input W3rdy303.

We don't need anymore comments on how horrible the size of the 3-bets are. We know now.

How would you play this hand, we still need commments on that:

CO is a decent player so far, but we have not seen fewer than 30 hands agaist him. His stats are something like 25/20 to 20/15 at this point, aggression is not really known. But most people that raise 3/4 of their played hands pf are aggressive too.

SB Hero($1762)
CO($696)

Preflop Hero is in SB with Kc Kd
CO raises to 24$, Hero reraises to $96, CO calls

Flop ($198) 9d 2h 3s
Hero bets $135, CO calls

Turn ($468) 8s
Hero ?

What do we do here folks? Please elaborate on your answers, "shove" is not accepted as a good answer without elaboration. Explain the strategy behind your actions, pretty please.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

[x] above hand is ficticious

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

oh and shove b/c you're not folding, and you get value from a lot of his range.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

&gt; [x] above hand is ficticious
And so what?

&gt;shove b/c
what does that mean? (sorry, not familiar with the term) should I shove, or should I bet and call a shove?

Anyway, I can hear you are not folding an overpair at this point. Is this correct? It doesn't sound good to me, not to able to fold an overpair. What exactly are we ahead of here? JJ TT, maybe A9s (if he is a bad player and would call with that kind of hand, but it is unlikely). QQ most people would have 4-bet pf, against a relatively unknown opponent, so QQ is very unlikely. 9Ts is a possibility, but most people would have folded it preflop, like A9s. Suited connectors that didn't connect with the flop would have been folded to our flop bet.

By the way I agree that it hard to fold the hand at this point, so honestly I wouldn't know what would be the best thing to do, that is why I am asking here. Does anybody know anything teoretically about this? It is a common situation. If anybody knows something teoretical, thay should be able to explain.

Other opinions would be appreciated - explain your strategy please (if you got the capacity to do). Don't just say what to do, nobody will learn much from that .

IT'S THE HAND 2 POSTS ABOVE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NOW!

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
&gt; [x] above hand is ficticious
And so what?

&gt;shove b/c
what does that mean? (sorry, not familiar with the term) should I shove, or should I bet and call a shove?

Anyway, I can hear you are not folding an overpair at this point. Is this correct? It doesn't sound good to me, not to able to fold an overpair. What exactly are we ahead of here? JJ TT, maybe A9s (if he is a bad player and would call with that kind of hand, but it is unlikely). QQ most people would have 4-bet pf, against a relatively unknown opponent, so QQ is very unlikely. 9Ts is a possibility, but most people would have folded it preflop, like A9s. Suited connectors that didn't connect with the flop would have been folded to our flop bet.

By the way I agree that it hard to fold the hand at this point, so honestly I wouldn't know what would be the best thing to do, that is why I am asking here. Does anybody know anything teoretically about this? It is a common situation. If anybody knows something teoretical, thay should be able to explain.

Other opinions would be appreciated - explain your strategy please (if you got the capacity to do). Don't just say what to do, nobody will learn much from that .

IT'S THE HAND 2 POSTS ABOVE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NOW!

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking some strategy and viewpoints from PNL...

We can look at this hand in terms of Stack-to-Pot-Ratio, or SPR. SPR is the amount of $$ that's in the flop as a ratio of the smallest stack in play. So, in this case, the flop is ~$200 and the smallest stack in play after the preflop action is about ~$600, giving an SPR of ~3.

Generally, with overpairs/TPTK type of hands, it is "okay" to commit all your chips when your SPR is 4.5ish, and still be +EV. So, with an SPR of 3 in this RR pot, you should not be looking to "minimize my losses", but rather, to get all the chips in some way or another. By betting flop, then pushing turn, it accomplishes that well.

I've been following this guideline, but I'm not exactly too sure of how true the +EV statement is just yet.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

[ QUOTE ]


Taking some strategy and viewpoints from PNL...

We can look at this hand in terms of Stack-to-Pot-Ratio, or SPR. SPR is the amount of $$ that's in the flop as a ratio of the smallest stack in play. So, in this case, the flop is ~$200 and the smallest stack in play after the preflop action is about ~$600, giving an SPR of ~3.

Generally, with overpairs/TPTK type of hands, it is "okay" to commit all your chips when your SPR is 4.5ish, and still be +EV. So, with an SPR of 3 in this RR pot, you should not be looking to "minimize my losses", but rather, to get all the chips in some way or another. By betting flop, then pushing turn, it accomplishes that well.

I've been following this guideline, but I'm not exactly too sure of how true the +EV statement is just yet.

[/ QUOTE ]


here's how I'd use SPR on these hands. same outcome as many posters. worst hands you want to fight against are bigger pair &gt;&gt; pair &gt;&gt; others b/c they have the most equity against you ("expectation" if you have difficulty using "equity" as a forward term). in both your hands, a bigger reraise preflop, which is still well within bounds of the game's raise sizes, would make it impossible for any hand weaker than yours to draw profitably. for example:

Hand 1: $24 raiser has a $696 starting stack. If you reraise pot to $81 and he calls, there's $169 in the pot and $616 behind. That's about SPR of 3.6. You've already won some Sklansky bucks. Opponent cannot draw with any hand for $80 with $616 behind. So that's a compelling reason to pot it. If he folds a lot to pot-sized bets, make more of them. (It's very close for him to draw with a pair even for your $56 reraise, and you do NOT have to force a mistake with every bet.)

Once you hit the flop, you can improve on "blind" commitment. Play poker. If you think the guy's got you beat more often than the implied odds justify, fold. Provided you're right, you make more money.


Same in the second hand. because you knew you'd very likely be up against one "short" stack if you saw the flop, a pot-sized reraise strengthens your position. you don't have to go broke postflop, but if you blindly committed with an overpair you would still have positive expectation.


another benefit of the pot-sized reraise: when your opponents won't steal a lot of pots from you, every dollar that goes in preflop with weaker hands than yours earns you money. here you will commit often, so you definitely like getting more money in preflop.

also, if your bets get no action, randomize in some suited connectors and AK. you LOVE taking down the preflop pot with those. if they'll fold most of the time that bet alone makes money. you freeroll on hitting your hand. plus you aggravate people with your aggression, which can work to your favor whenever you have a good hand. once they start playing back at you, tighten up. a lot of this requires "feel," but it works.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

Thanks for your post overun and especially Matt Flynn. It is very nice to hear some background strategy instead just monosyllables ;-). That was exactly what I was looking for. Much appreciated, thank you.

I have already heard about SPR, though I have not read about it yet, but I'm planning to, maybe in "Professional no-limit hold’em: volume one" by Ed Miller, Sunny Mehta and Matt Flynn!! I'm amazed that you are the Co-author Matt.

In a reraised pot, and normal stacks the SPR will almost always be below 4.5 (that is according to what overrun is saying). Hence it should be okay to commit with an overpair or TPTK. I believe this to be theoretically correct. I also implies that you can commit every time with an overpair, in a reraised pot (where the shortest stack is approx “normal” that is 100BB), but I don’t like the idea of never folding an overpair in this situation, sometimes I do believe it is correct to fold an overpair here, though it is rare (1 in eight to ten times maybe, around the same times as the a weaker hand would have outdrawn you) I like your comment here Matt.

[ QUOTE ]

Once you hit the flop, you can improve on "blind" commitment. Play poker. If you think the guy's got you beat more often than the implied odds justify, fold. Provided you're right, you make more money.
[/qoute]

It is a good idea to switch on the brain instead of playing blind commitment in these situations, it will give +EV in the long run. I require a lot of “feel” as you say, and that takes experience of course. I just love theory and general guidelines, to make the “feel” more precise and even better, and to make sure that the “feel” is not way off.

[ QUOTE ]

also, if your bets get no action, randomize in some suited connectors and AK. you LOVE taking down the preflop pot with those. if they'll fold most of the time that bet alone makes money. you freeroll on hitting your hand. plus you aggravate people with your aggression, which can work to your favor whenever you have a good hand. once they start playing back at you, tighten up. a lot of this requires "feel," but it works.


[/ QUOTE ]

I do a lot of this, sometimes I even reraise with air, if there is a high probability of that the raiser will fold. Example: he has been raising a lot, I haven’t been reraising at all, and he is “good player” capable of folding to a reraise ofcourse).

I do agree with a lot of posters to make the reraise more than pot when you are oop. It is hard to control the pot in any way oop, and therefore it’s hard not to end up all in, even though you think you are beat. In position you have a better chance of getting to a cheap(er) showdown in case you want to. I have already begun making my oop reraises a little more than pot (approx 10%). My in position raises are still approx. pot.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

READ THIS POST INSTEAD OF THE ONE ABOVE, THE QUOTES ARE NOT F.. UP IN THIS ONE.

Thanks for your post overun and especially Matt Flynn. It is very nice to hear some background strategy instead just monosyllables [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] . That was exactly what I was looking for. Much appreciated, thank you.

I have already heard about SPR, though I have not read about it yet, but I'm planning to, maybe in "Professional no-limit hold’em: volume one" by Ed Miller, Sunny Mehta and Matt Flynn!! I can't believe you are the co-author Matt. I didn't notice before I copied and pasted the title - pretty cool.

In a reraised pot (3-bet called preflop), and normal stacks the SPR will almost always be below 4.5 (that is according to what overrun is saying). Hence it should be okay to commit with an overpair or TPTK. I believe this to be theoretically correct. I also implies that you can commit every time with an overpair, in a reraised pot (where the shortest stack is approx “normal” that is 100BB), but I don’t like the idea of never folding an overpair in this situation, sometimes I do believe it is correct to fold an overpair here, though it is rare (1 in eight to ten times maybe, around the same times as the a weaker hand would have outdrawn you) I like your comment here Matt.

[ QUOTE ]

Once you hit the flop, you can improve on "blind" commitment. Play poker. If you think the guy's got you beat more often than the implied odds justify, fold. Provided you're right, you make more money.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is a good idea to switch on the brain instead of playing blind commitment in these situations, it will give +EV in the long run. I require a lot of “feel” as you say, and that takes experience of course. I just love theory and general guidelines, to make a base for what you are doing, and to make sure your intuition is not way off. On top of the theory and guidelines you can play poker and improvise as madly as you want to.

[ QUOTE ]

also, if your bets get no action, randomize in some suited connectors and AK. you LOVE taking down the preflop pot with those. if they'll fold most of the time that bet alone makes money. you freeroll on hitting your hand. plus you aggravate people with your aggression, which can work to your favor whenever you have a good hand. once they start playing back at you, tighten up. a lot of this requires "feel," but it works.


[/ QUOTE ]

I do a lot of this, sometimes I even reraise with air, if there is a high probability of that the raiser will fold. Example: he has been raising a lot, I haven’t been reraising at all, and he is capable of folding to a reraise ofcourse.

I do agree with a lot of posters to make the reraise more than pot when you are oop. It is hard to control the pot in any way oop, and therefore it’s hard not to end up all in, even though you think you are beat. In position you have a better chance of getting to a cheap(er) showdown in case you want to. I have already begun making my oop reraises a little more than pot (approx 10%). My in position raises are still approx. pot.

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your input W3rdy303.

We don't need anymore comments on how horrible the size of the 3-bets are. We know now.

How would you play this hand, we still need commments on that:

CO is a decent player so far, but we have not seen fewer than 30 hands agaist him. His stats are something like 25/20 to 20/15 at this point, aggression is not really known. But most people that raise 3/4 of their played hands pf are aggressive too.

SB Hero($1762)
CO($696)

Preflop Hero is in SB with Kc Kd
CO raises to 24$, Hero reraises to $96, CO calls

Flop ($198) 9d 2h 3s
Hero bets $135, CO calls

Turn ($468) 8s
Hero ?

What do we do here folks? Please elaborate on your answers, "shove" is not accepted as a good answer without elaboration. Explain the strategy behind your actions, pretty please.

[/ QUOTE ]

SHOVE BECAUSE THEY WILL CALL WITH MANY MANY WORSE HANDS DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Re: How should I play overpairs oop?
 

There is nothing you can do in hand 1 really. It is merely bad luck he happened to have a set, but you lose a ton of value by checking this river, and if you are checking the river it should be to c/f not to c/c.

Hand 2 is trickier and comes down to reads and your own table image. I would shove the river for value vs most given how this hand played out, since most people will not slowplay a set on this board, but c/fing the river here is probably ok, since the only hands he can be bluffing with are J9,Q9, and maybe 55.