16s: Bad Fold?
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG (t2035)
Hero (t3870)
SB (t1230)
BB (t6365)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t400</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1200</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls t800.

Flop: (t2450) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t810 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1640

I think I screwed this one all the way up.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

wow...

Pf 3bet is good, you can still fold if BB comes over the top.

There is no way in hell you can fold that flop though when UTG flatcalls pf...

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

I put UTG on AQ+, 99+. I wanted to scare him with the whole 3x reraise equals = KK or AA thing. It didnt work and I figured that range was good when he bet out on that low flop.

What does he have that I beat that also does not fold preflop and bets out on a low flop?

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What does he have that I beat that also does not fold preflop and bets out on a low flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think he is that tight ? Do you really think he folds AJ or KQ for that matter there ? It's 16, he's a donk. He could have KTs or just about anything else.

And even if he has AQ+, 99+ you are still about 30% to win. You are getting 4:1, or 20% to call for a huge pot. This is a must-call.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

Getting 4:1 postflop makes this a call, even if you're pretty sure you're behind. Even if he has a pair your AK still has a fighting chance. He could also have AQ, AJ, KQ. With the BB out of the hand, I think this is an easy call.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

I just push preflop. As played, I think you have to call. I'm not exactly sure what hands he would play in this way (reads?), but I suspect either you are behind or he has a draw.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

Yeah, I actually also like the push pf best. It would really suck to have to fold if BB comes over the top and UTG folds.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

I have to say I like 1200, or even 1100 better than a push here.

Flop is obv a call.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

Yeah, I don't like pushing here for 20 BB. 1200 is fine IMO, just get it in on each flop and fold to a BB raise.

Edit: No, I think pushing is better, such a spew otherwise.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

zomg shove pf!!! and u can never fold this flop like whoaaaaa.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

How is 1200 a "spew"?

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

if u fold the flop

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

Yeah, but that's like saying "threebeting AA pre is such a spew" *intermission* "if you fold to a fourbet" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

I like to shove here pf as a general rule. What if raiser's stack wasn't perfectly aligned so that we have the odds to call anything he pushes on the flop? In other circumstances similar to this, we might be folding the flop when we whiff after he pushes the flop for a significant amount.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

...then we push

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have to say I like 1200, or even 1100 better than a push here.

Flop is obv a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is raising better than pushing...also if we're raising to fold vs bb I probably agree with raising less, maybe 1k?

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

shoving is better than raising b/c it doesn't allow biggie to shove over the top of us and get us to fold our hand (raise is exploitable by good villains). Just raising and leaving ourselves open to a re-shove where we have to muck AK is pretty bad. You are shoving so that you don't have to muck pre facing later action (where calling would be neg ev).

Also raising to 1200 and mucking the flop is pretty horrible.

If biggie flats we'll have to proceed very carefully on missed flops (and probably makes cbetting HU vs him too risky).

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

I'm in the push camp. Pushing puts you out of trouble if BB pushes or only calls your raise.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

The thing is, big stack will nearly never push over our three bet, expecting us to fold.
If villain is solid, views us as someone who'd be able to fold TT/AK in this spot, he'd probably not risk nearly 4k HOPING we are a) not on QQ/KK+, b) folding marginal hands.

This will happen nearly never, imo.

I think our raise to 1100 or so

a) Looks way stronger than push to biggie
b) Makes pfr make retarded calls, which he wouldn't against a push

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

Nice post vers.

Loxxi from a couple of your post there's something you need to be doing preflop that I don't think you are.

When sizing a preflop raise, you need to be thinking what your stack will be after the raise - what the effective stacks (depending who calls) and what the pot will be if you're called. If it's going to put you in a tough spot on the flop, such as this and your KQo post, you should be pushing preflop if you are really wanting to raise.

I'd only make raises like this with hands I want action against and I'm going to put all the chips in on any flop - like AA/KK. I mix in pushing AA/KK if I have history with the players at the table.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, big stack will nearly never push over our three bet, expecting us to fold.
If villain is solid, views us as someone who'd be able to fold TT/AK in this spot, he'd probably not risk nearly 4k HOPING we are a) not on QQ/KK+, b) folding marginal hands.

This will happen nearly never, imo.

I think our raise to 1100 or so

a) Looks way stronger than push to biggie
b) Makes pfr make retarded calls, which he wouldn't against a push

[/ QUOTE ]

What you are saying is interesting, but your premise is taht BB is solid. A non-solid BB would probably seldom push over a reraise with a wide range, but could still call our raise leaving us in a bad spot most of the time.

Also I'm not sure I want pfr to call my raise.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nice post vers.

Loxxi from a couple of your post there's something you need to be doing preflop that I don't think you are.

When sizing a preflop raise, you need to be thinking what your stack will be after the raise - what the effective stacks (depending who calls) and what the pot will be if you're called. If it's going to put you in a tough spot on the flop, such as this and your KQo post, you should be pushing preflop if you are really wanting to raise.

I'd only make raises like this with hands I want action against and I'm going to put all the chips in on any flop - like AA/KK. I mix in pushing AA/KK if I have history with the players at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks B, I normally do but this time I wanted to play it like AA and hopefully get him to fold. This was bad decision and I will just push next time. I'm learning.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

loxxii, I understand your logic, but you have to remember, that would require your opponents to think.

Re: 16s: Bad Fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
loxxii, I understand your logic, but you have to remember, that would require your opponents to think.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

WORD!