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-   -   Tommy Angelo (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=447625)

Faststan 07-10-2007 12:38 PM

Tommy Angelo
 
I am thinking seriously of spending $8000.and taking Tommy's course.Has anyone ever taken it or can offer any advice.I play 20/40 limit(full kill)at the local casino which is the largest game in the city.Thanks.

Neko 07-10-2007 12:58 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
man 200BB is a lot of scrill. I guess if you have serious tilt/mental issues with your game then it might be worth it but, that price seems kind of ridic.

yourface 07-10-2007 01:54 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
you could likely get a cheaper coach who could help you just as much

8000 is a lot considering the stakes you play

Victor 07-10-2007 05:57 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
are you a pro? if so you arent paying 8k since its a write off.

danderso8 07-10-2007 08:09 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
[ QUOTE ]
are you a pro? if so you arent paying 8k since its a write off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it's not even necessary that he be a pro. Amateurs are eligible to deduct expenses, as well, up to the amount of winnings.

See this court decision.

--Dan

dangerfish 07-11-2007 12:00 AM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
That seems like a lot but I have never had a coaching experience that was not worth the money. I would bet this one would be no expection.

P.S Victor, that includes you buddy.

TheActionKid 07-11-2007 12:26 AM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
I'll coach you for way cheaper. $8000? Price is ridiculous man, not worth it.

-TheActionKid

andyfox 07-11-2007 12:53 AM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
I read through the whole decision. It's not quite so easy to call it a write-off if you're an amateur.

That said, Tommy has special gifts and lessons from him are well, well worth it.

hockey1983 07-11-2007 03:14 AM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
he offers telephone consultations that are less expensive

leo doc 07-11-2007 08:45 AM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
So which coaches offer the "biggest bang for the buck" for a medium stakes LHE player?

Lestat 07-11-2007 12:26 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
Just my personal opinion...

Tommy is a very gifted writer and might have much to offer when it comes to any mental aspects of the game. I think this is VERY important! However, I've never been too impressed with his tactical strategy, nor am I confident his skills would be sufficient to crush even a semi-tough game. I personally wouldn't pay 8k to someone who thinks it's cute to muck AA pre-flop, and brags about folding +EV hands from the big blind. But I'm sure this attests to his zen-like qualities (which I think are important). Still, for 8k, I'd want someone who can teach me how to make the MOST money even from tougher players. For that...

I'd recommend Stoxtrader.

TheWorstPlayer 07-11-2007 12:40 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
[ QUOTE ]
he offers telephone consultations that are less expensive

[/ QUOTE ]
I have done this before with him. I don't think he offers it anymore though. Yes, he is fantastic. No, he does not brag about folding +EV hands in the blinds. He thinks the hands he folds in the blinds are -EV. Yes, I think he has the skills to beat high stakes online games. No, I have no proof for that. And I don't play limit holdem.

cgrohman 07-11-2007 12:41 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Artic...mbling-tax.htm

It's a good and accurate article.

Joe Tall 07-11-2007 12:44 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
[ QUOTE ]
However, I've never been too impressed with his tactical strategy

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank god he doesn't talk about this much in his lessons. I agree.

[ QUOTE ]

I personally wouldn't pay 8k to someone who thinks it's cute to muck AA pre-flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still amazed on how many posters here just haven't grasped this. This was talked about at a twoplustwo mix game in Vegas earlier this year and the typical non-understandings where brought up. I said some things and then Justin A looked me in the eye and said, "I get it, Joe." and I could see clearly that he did.

Lestat 07-11-2007 01:15 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
I think I "get it" that you're being terribly sarcastic.

I also "get" why he mucked AA. I do NOT "get" why he seemed to advocate throwing away pos.EV from the big blind.

Like I said, he's a gifted writer and no doubt has something to offer in the form of lessons. But I don't think he'd have much to offer an already competent player looking to beat tougher games. 8 dimes is a lot of money to improve 20-40 results. For that kind of scratch I want "advanced" lessons and for that, I'd go to a proven winner in big games (someone like Stox). The guy asked for an opinion and I gave him mine.

TheWorstPlayer 07-11-2007 01:36 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
As a former student of TA, I'd just add that I would go to the Dalai Lama for poker lessons if he could help me not to tilt (Tommy can) even though he doesn't know the rules of poker. And second of all, the way that Tommy plays his cards is all part of a unified framework that ties in very tightly to the way he does things without cards. He'll talk to you about how to sit at the table, how to handle your chips, which seats to sit in, which tables to sit at, how much money to bring to the casino, and a million other things which have nothing to do with pure poker strategy. These things all have a huge impact on how much money you make from playing poker.

I agree, though, that if you're playing 20/40 maybe you can't afford it. Ultimately, I ended my lessons because I couldn't afford them and they were hurting my cash flow, even though I think they would certainly have paid for themselves in the long run many times over and I hope to go back to them at some point.

SA125 07-11-2007 01:39 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
I talked to Tommy about it when the price was around 2K. I wished I'd have done it. Not for his overall strategy. Even though it's ironic that the one aspect I'd really want him to go into is his blind play. He obviously plays it tighter and I'm open minded about it.

I don't have personal insights, but I think Tommy's value is in the approach to the game. Not what's the best way to play AK to an UTG raise. Rather the best way to position yourself for success to win money if you plan to rely on making money from poker. The big picture.

Professionally. Like a job. In that regard, he's walked the walk so he can talk the talk.

8K though? It all depends I guess.

Joe Tall 07-11-2007 01:45 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think I "get it" that you're being terribly sarcastic.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bro, I'm from Boston, I'm born this way, what can I do? Sorry if it offended you. (seriously)

[ QUOTE ]
I do NOT "get" why he seemed to advocate throwing away pos.EV from the big blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm the #3 Tommy fan on this forum, and what I get is that it works for him. That's fine as we all play poker the same way, our own way. (borrowed from Tommy o/c)

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said, he's a gifted writer and no doubt has something to offer in the form of lessons. But I don't think he'd have much to offer an already competent player looking to beat tougher games. 8 dimes is a lot of money to improve 20-40 results. For that kind of scratch I want "advanced" lessons and for that, I'd go to a proven winner in big games (someone like Stox). The guy asked for an opinion and I gave him mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you about Stox. My perfect coaching combo would Tommy for out of hand (meta game/approach) and Stox for in-hand, although you can get a lot of in-hand right here. Since I feel meta game is 3 parts of 5, that would be 3xTommy, 2xStox, Tommys full of Stox is the nut hand for LHE!

Faststan 07-11-2007 04:31 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
Thank you all kindly for your advice.I am a retired business man and thankfully my winnings have no significance.That being said I am a passionate advantage gambler and now poker has become a way of life.For some reason I also have a problem with tilting as with most other players.
The game I play in is really soft and I have destroyed it,but you guys( Joe Tall,death donkey etc)probably would have won a lot more.I want to play to the best of my ability so I will consider both Tommy and Stox.The better I get, the more I enjoy the game.
May the God of standard devation bless you all.

Lestat 07-11-2007 06:08 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
If tilt is your problem, then Tommy would be an excellent choice. I don't mean to dis Tommy in any way. It's just that I'm not convinced he'd beat the games I play in, so I couldn't consider him for strategic coaching (although I would consider him for mental coaching). I'm quite sure Stox beats tougher games than I play, which is why he'd be my choice to coach me in playing style and strategy.

Lestat 07-11-2007 06:15 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
<font color="blue">These things all have a huge impact on how much money you make from playing poker.
</font>

What huge impact does the amount of money I bring to a casino have on how much money I make from playing poker? ~Gasp! What effect are the other items in my pockets having on my hourly earn?

TheWorstPlayer 07-11-2007 06:20 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
You've never seen a great 2/4 game and thought 'gee, i'd sit if I just had more cash on hand'? or been to the casino expecting to play 2/4 and then they didnt have anything above 50/100 going and you sat and didnt play that great because you had too much money in your pocket and the game was smaller than you were hoping for?

Lestat 07-11-2007 09:05 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
[ QUOTE ]
You've never seen a great 2/4 game and thought 'gee, i'd sit if I just had more cash on hand'? or been to the casino expecting to play 2/4 and then they didnt have anything above 50/100 going and you sat and didnt play that great because you had too much money in your pocket and the game was smaller than you were hoping for?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can honestly say, no. Neither of those situations have ever happened to me. Then again, I'm kinda anal. I keep boxes at all rooms I play. And if I wasn't in the mood to play 50 (or whatever), I just wouldn't play. If I did sit in the 50, I couldn't see going on tilt because there's 200k burning a hole in my box. ??

But now that I think about it, you make a good point. There really are some players who can't seem to manage themselves, their play, and br's, like a business. So Tommy would be an ideal choice for them.

Dave Mac 07-11-2007 09:50 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
[ QUOTE ]
But now that I think about it, you make a good point. There really are some players who can't seem to manage themselves, their play, and br's, like a business. So Tommy would be an ideal choice for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

guess i need to chop off my finger and invest 50% in developing some angeloites.

pocketpared 07-11-2007 09:59 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
Well..for one, your own comfort level. Number two, it's called "setting a target". First thing you do when you walk into a new pool hall is buy a coffee at the counter then fumble your 8K roll and drop it on the floor when trying to peel off a single to pay for the coffee. May have some application to poker.

limon 07-12-2007 01:39 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
[ QUOTE ]
So which coaches offer the "biggest bang for the buck" for a medium stakes LHE player?

[/ QUOTE ]
me. cause when you inevitably want to learn nl or stud or triple draw orrr maybe even golf you can keep the same caoch.

Ryno 07-12-2007 03:44 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
You are right that Tommy's not going to teach you how to extract the maximum from the toughest players. That said, I think the OP would benefit far more from Tommy than from Stoxtrader. It's hard to say "yes, it's worth $X" because X depends on the person, but OP seems like the ideal candidate.

Lestat 07-12-2007 05:40 PM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
[ QUOTE ]
You are right that Tommy's not going to teach you how to extract the maximum from the toughest players. That said, I think the OP would benefit far more from Tommy than from Stoxtrader. It's hard to say "yes, it's worth $X" because X depends on the person, but OP seems like the ideal candidate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose.. But I really don't understand those with emotional/tilt problems. I guess I'm lucky in that way. I only want to improve my knowledge and strategy of the game and that's pretty much all I focus on. I've never had tilt or emotional issues which is why I don't relate or sympathize with those who do.

Ryno 07-13-2007 02:05 AM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
It's not so much focused on emotional/tilt problems, although that's part of it. I'd describe it as comprehensive coverage of mental preparation and training for the game of _____ {poker can go in there, but my golf game has gotten better too [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]}.

Lestat 07-13-2007 02:13 AM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's not so much focused on emotional/tilt problems, although that's part of it. I'd describe it as comprehensive coverage of mental preparation and training for the game of _____ {poker can go in there, but my golf game has gotten better too [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]}.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not gonna lie. I DO tilt at golf! Big time! I'm not sure why poker is different for me. ??

Actually, even some of the best athletes use sports psychologists. So it can't be too bad for poker either.

ACPlayer 07-14-2007 12:16 AM

Re: Tommy Angelo
 
[ QUOTE ]
Just my personal opinion...

Tommy is a very gifted writer and might have much to offer when it comes to any mental aspects of the game. I think this is VERY important! However, I've never been too impressed with his tactical strategy, nor am I confident his skills would be sufficient to crush even a semi-tough game. I personally wouldn't pay 8k to someone who thinks it's cute to muck AA pre-flop, and brags about folding +EV hands from the big blind. But I'm sure this attests to his zen-like qualities (which I think are important). Still, for 8k, I'd want someone who can teach me how to make the MOST money even from tougher players. For that...

I'd recommend Stoxtrader.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been reading Stoxtrader and I like what he says. However, if the games the OP plays are like the AC games or the Commerce games then you have to be careful how you apply principles that work in 6max and tough games.

When I was first starting out in Hold Em, after reading HPFAP and Theory of Poker etc, the most important change in my game came from the Psychology of Poker as I gained a better understanding of myself and my opponents. I suspect that Tommy's Zen approach (and I find myself generally in agreement with his posts) may have the most value. Getting hold of yourself and your game when the players are going crackhead crazy around you cannot be learnt from the Stox books


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