is this unethical??
 

was at the borg this afternoon playin 2/5NL. a man to my left has been very friendly to me when this hand came up. i have about 500-600 in front of me and the BB has me covered. i was in the SB with 2/4 of spades. 2 limpers and the BB chks and we get a flop of K/9/6 of spades. i lead out for 25 the BB calls and the limpers fold. turn comes a A of hearts. i bet out 60 and he raises me 100 more. i think for a while and know he has the A of spades. i announced "raise", before i can say anything thing else he screams out "ALLIN". at this point i had to put out at least 100 for the raise i was going to make, so i put it in.
so i now have about 300 left and ask him if i should call him. i show him my small flush and he says "thats no good, i got u beat, ill show you". so i said "ok, i believe you" and mucked. he then immediatley threw his hand in the muck! i was like wtf, i never seen any1 do this to anyone b4 and he simply said "i lied". what an [censored]! i know for sure i folded the best hand because i believed this [censored]. i learned a new lesson today. is this unethical?

Re: is this unethical??
 

Well, if lying is unethical, then yeah. It's not against any rules, though.

Re: is this unethical??
 

No, poker actually contains some elements of deception.

Re: is this unethical??
 

This is a situation i hate more than any in poker. Although unethical, yes, it is not against the rules. You can argue with him about it for days, nothing will change. If he shows you a better hand, muck. If not, trust your reads, not some poker player you dont even know.

Re: is this unethical??
 

There is nothing unethical about taking money from a dummy at the poker table.

Re: is this unethical??
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, poker actually contains some elements of deception.

[/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: is this unethical??
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, poker actually contains some elements of deception.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this comment, although this isn´t really deception it´s just [censored] ugly. Maybe it´s just me but I youldn´t do it...
I guess this is the last time it has happened to you... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: is this unethical??
 

It's certainly not ethical, but there are times when you can pull a move like that. Twice, and twice only thus far, I have gone to a show down with an opponent and lied about what I had before showing it. The reason was, on several occassions when these two guys were weak they were often folding at the showdown as soon as another player declared their hand (but before turning it over). Both times I declared a small set (when I had missed my draw) in the hopes they would fold as they had proven to do in similar situations..and it worked!

Now, needless to say these players were pissed when they saw I'd "exagerated", but when cards play themselves..and not what you say you have and a mucked hand is dead, you win the pot. Not saying this was a nice move, but sometimes you gotta do something extra to win a hand. Will I try this move again, probably not, I don't usually want my ATM's angry with me.

I'm not sure why you folded though. You made the hand you were going for and figured him for just the As. It smells like he might have got lucky with Aces up with the As. At most he had 13 outs to improve, match his A or 2nd pair for a boat or any spade. If you're beat, then you're beat, you "could" runner-runner a straight flush (not likely). The pot was 390 after you matched the 100 more..I think you have to call this like every time.

Sucks though, slash his tires, take his stack, have a beer.

D_D

Re: is this unethical??
 

yes, i totally agree that this was a call i had to make. if it wasnt for him being friendly with me and having a small convo with me thru out the game i wouldve never took his word for it. he totally made me believe in what he was saying and he said he was goin to show me his hand.
i personally and i think a majority of players, wouldnt LIE about their hand AND say i'll show u if u muck and when your opponent mucks u quickly toss your hand away. i just wouldnt say anything at all.
but like i said, i learned a great lesson at the table today and i hope everyone that reads this learns too.

Re: is this unethical??
 

I like TJ Clouthier's quote:

"If you tell somebody your hand, you better be lying."

Re: is this unethical??
 

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing unethical about taking money from a dummy at the poker table.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps not, but the question is not concerning whether or not the guy raked in his chips.

You have to take care of yourself, if you feel the need to see his hand... pay for it. I usually find myself calling when people tell me they'll show if I fold.

Re: is this unethical??
 

lol @ believing an opponent when you flopped a flush.

Re: is this unethical??
 

maybe don't show him your hand next time.

Re: is this unethical??
 

Why the hell did you flip your hand over?

Re: is this unethical??
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol @ believing an opponent when you flopped a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

qft

Re: is this unethical??
 

[ QUOTE ]

so i now have about 300 left and ask him if i should call him. i show him my small flush and he says "thats no good, i got u beat, ill show you". so i said "ok, i believe you" and mucked.

[/ QUOTE ]


Do you see this when you look in the mirror?

http://www.rasterman.com/photos/fish/dscn5058.jpg

Re: is this unethical??
 

Yeah well that quote doesn't really apply to this situation since the guy is all-in on the river, and OP only has one more situation and that is to either call or fold. In the TJ quote they guy bet on the flop or turn, got reraised, and the guy said I will show you a king if it will slow you down. Then the [censored] goes all-in. But to the OP this is not unethical, or the idiot you based your action, on what your opponent said, the person your trying to take chips from. When reading this, it made me laugh.

Re: is this unethical??
 

A lie, is a lie, is a lie. I suppose people think lies add "color" to the game. I believe they are an anachronism from the old days of illegal smoky back room venues where a lie represented the most benign of the inherent illegalities, cheating and character flaws likely to be present. I do not believe such behavior best serves the game, and the kind illustrated here ought to be penalized. It isn't "clever," it's just sleazy. And the "I can get away with it so it must be OK." argument is no better.

Re: is this unethical??
 

You tried to get information out of him by showing him your hand. He gave you information. It just turned out to be misinformation. Live and learn.

Re: is this unethical??
 

There is no rule in the book that says, if your opponent folds, and you say you'll show, you have to show when he folds. If your dumb enough to believe someone when they say they will show you, and you base your action on that, then that is your problem. Haven't you heard never trust a poker player?

Re: is this unethical??
 

[ QUOTE ]
was at the borg this afternoon playin 2/5NL. a man to my left has been very friendly to me when this hand came up. i have about 500-600 in front of me and the BB has me covered. i was in the SB with 2/4 of spades. 2 limpers and the BB chks and we get a flop of K/9/6 of spades. i lead out for 25 the BB calls and the limpers fold. turn comes a A of hearts. i bet out 60 and he raises me 100 more. i think for a while and know he has the A of spades. i announced "raise", before i can say anything thing else he screams out "ALLIN". at this point i had to put out at least 100 for the raise i was going to make, so i put it in.
so i now have about 300 left and ask him if i should call him. i show him my small flush and he says "thats no good, i got u beat, ill show you". so i said "ok, i believe you" and mucked. he then immediatley threw his hand in the muck! i was like wtf, i never seen any1 do this to anyone b4 and he simply said "i lied". what an [censored]! i know for sure i folded the best hand because i believed this [censored]. i learned a new lesson today. is this unethical?

[/ QUOTE ]

i hope the lesson you learned was to play your hand and not get involved in this Hollywood things-i-would-do-on-ESPN-to-get-more-camera-time bull [censored]. It is the red game at the Borgata for Christs' sake. You have a flush on an unpaired board. The rest is obvious.

Re: is this unethical??
 

[ QUOTE ]
A lie, is a lie, is a lie. I suppose people think lies add "color" to the game. I believe they are an anachronism from the old days of illegal smoky back room venues where a lie represented the most benign of the inherent illegalities, cheating and character flaws likely to be present. I do not believe such behavior best serves the game, and the kind illustrated here ought to be penalized. It isn't "clever," it's just sleazy. And the "I can get away with it so it must be OK." argument is no better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

Bluffing should be outlawed.

Re: is this unethical??
 

Lol, are you at the table to win money or have a friendly poker game? The object is to at any cost (without cheating) get all of your opponent's money, so if you knew you got caught bluffing wouldn't you do the same thing in order to get your opponent to fold their made hand? Jaime Gold did this same strategy of talking about his hand before it was over and saying how he was "bluffing" in the 06 main event and it worked many times for him...this guy wasn't really doing anything different to you but he just took it a step further and did not show you his bluff.

Re: is this unethical??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have about 500-600 in front of me and the BB has me covered. i was in the SB with 2/4 of spades. 2 limpers and the BB chks and we get a flop of K/9/6 of spades. i lead out for 25 the BB calls and the limpers fold. turn comes a A of hearts. i bet out 60 and he raises me 100 more. i think for a while and know he has the A of spades. i announced "raise", before i can say anything thing else he screams out "ALLIN". at this point i had to put out at least 100 for the raise i was going to make, so i put it in.
so i now have about 300 left and ask him if i should call him. i show him my small flush and he says "thats no good, i got u beat, ill show you". so i said "ok, i believe you" and mucked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, you showed him your hand and asked if you should call him? He said you shouldn't, so you didn't? When you announced "raise" he butted in with "all in" and you didn't find that suspicious?

I think that this stranger has taught you a very important lesson and you should be greatful for that.

Why would you ever consider showing your hand to someone you are in a pot with before the hand is over? That is some crazy uber-fish type move!

Re: is this unethical??
 

[ QUOTE ]
was at the borg this afternoon playin 2/5NL. a man to my left has been very friendly to me when this hand came up. i have about 500-600 in front of me and the BB has me covered. i was in the SB with 2/4 of spades. 2 limpers and the BB chks and we get a flop of K/9/6 of spades. i lead out for 25 the BB calls and the limpers fold. turn comes a A of hearts. i bet out 60 and he raises me 100 more. i think for a while and know he has the A of spades. i announced "raise", before i can say anything thing else he screams out "ALLIN". at this point i had to put out at least 100 for the raise i was going to make, so i put it in.
so i now have about 300 left and ask him if i should call him. i show him my small flush and he says "thats no good, i got u beat, ill show you". so i said "ok, i believe you" and mucked. he then immediatley threw his hand in the muck! i was like wtf, i never seen any1 do this to anyone b4 and he simply said "i lied". what an [censored]! i know for sure i folded the best hand because i believed this [censored]. i learned a new lesson today. is this unethical?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in my opinion you got exactly what you deserved. What did you expect? To show your opponent your hand and then have him tell you that you are good and just concede the hand to you? Don't be a moron.

I will tell you this, when I am playing live and I come across morons like you trying to gain an edge by showing me their cards and observing my reaction, I will stick it to you every which way I can. What you did was unethical! What he did was the normal and correct response to a dirty play like yours.

I do love players like you though because I will stick it to you, and tilt you the whole day long. You try to pick up a dirty edge and then get upset because somebody outwits you. Be reasonable and get used to it. It sounds like you will be outwitted for a long time to come.

P.S. Did I mention that you are the one that plays dirty poker?

Re: is this unethical??
 

This thread reminds me of Jamie Gold, basically got through the wsop [censored] talking

Re: is this unethical??
 

I'm not sure I would've told anyone about this mistake. You gave him the hand. Why not just have the traditional showdown? He bluffed you and it is that simple. How can his play be unethical when you are the one in control. In order for him to win the pot, he had to show you a better hand than you had, but instead you just gave him your money lol.

Re: is this unethical??
 

Josem.

Wake up. Bluffing, slow playing a strong hand etc. are all integral parts of the game and require no conversation or outright lying with intent. What part of that basic principle are you having trouble understanding? Poker has a lot of room built in for misdirection. It doesn't need help from sleazy behavior outside the bounds of ethical play.

Re: is this unethical??
 

some table won't let you misrepsent your hand like I have a set 5's but you can say, can you beat a small set? I like that approach better, your only asking a question.

Re: is this unethical??
 

[ QUOTE ]
What part of that basic principle are you having trouble understanding? Poker has a lot of room built in for misdirection. It doesn't need help from sleazy behavior outside the bounds of ethical play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're creating fictitious rules, and forcing other players (who may well have no knowledge of your own self-created rules) to abide by them.

This is clearly absurd.



How can you expect someone to abide a rule when there's no reasonable expectation that they even know of your rule?


*in my post, you are welcome to replace the word "rule" with "ethical guideline" if you prefer.

Re: is this unethical??
 

It is a bad feeling to get this done to you. It is a good lesson learned.
I would say in a game that revolves around no one knowing your hand. You should expect if someone has money involved in a pot they would lying about the true nature of there holding.

Re: is this unethical??
 

Just off the top of my head, not sure that this holds up but here it goes..

Next time a guy offers to show you his hand, rebuttal with great I'll pay you.... Toss $5 in his direction (before you much of course) If he takes the money it is a binding contract (well sort of) if he does take the money maybe that tells you something...

Re: is this unethical??
 

I don't think it was unethical for him to lie. it sucks but it's not unethical. some might say it's unethical for you to show him your cards but i disagree with that as well.

who knows maybe he was telling the truth and saved you money. the river may have brought a spade!

michael