Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

100/200 a25 6-handed

I raise UTG to 600 with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Button calls. He's too loose preflop and not really good postflop but not crazy or anything. He can have like any suited ace, small-mid pairs, paint cards, and like AT-AJ, maybe AQ, and probably some suited connectors or something. Pot 1750, effective stacks like 13.5K to start the hand.

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet 1200, he makes it 2500. What do I do? If I don't jam what is my plan for the turn/river?

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

given the range you listed, i think just jam and be happy should he call off his chips.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

Screw it I'd just reraise, especially since you say he's not that good, he may talk himself into calling with some BS. Raise some amount so that in case he has clubs he will call you, like 4600-5000 or so?

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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given the range you listed, i think just jam and be happy should he call off his chips.

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Yeah but its a huge disaster if you get him to fold something like KQc or QJc or whatever, any club draw. Also if you raise smaller he's going to have a tough enough time folding something like AT, maybe he finds the fold if you move allin.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

I should say I'm pretty sure he's like never calling a reraise with a worse ace, but he's bad postflop in the sense that he may be raising to see where he's at with one.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

I recommend you cold call the flop, then see into his soul to determine the best way to get the money in on the turn, keeping in mind that he frequently wants to check weak hands on the turn. Also, I don't think that both he has AJ beat often enough and that he wont get the money in when a good card comes for you often enough, that you should jam the flop instead of coldcall and invite his < AJ hands to make a serious error.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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Screw it I'd just reraise, especially since you say he's not that good, he may talk himself into calling with some BS. Raise some amount so that in case he has clubs he will call you, like 4600-5000 or so?

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Three-betting the flop small from UTG is going to look really, really strong on that board and I'd say he'd have to be really bad to call with a weaker ace (and no club draw). I think all that calls any type of three bet is sets and clubs, maybe AK (which doesn't seem all that likely).

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

I'd call. If you jam, he is never folding a better hand (right?) and folding almost all of his worse ones.

Calling will also pretty much ensure you get another bet out of a weak ace if the turn/river brick. Additionally, you will keep smaller flush draws around which will probably fire a second barrel.

Lastly, by calling you may save chips if you are up against a set or two pair. If he doesn't size his bets well you can get to showdown for less than all-in, and additionally can probably get him to stack off with one of those hands if your flush hits. (no one folds a set, ever). Call.

In short, raising all-in doesn't accomplish much unless you think he is calling with AT-A4 or a naked flush draw or something really stupid.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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Screw it I'd just reraise, especially since you say he's not that good, he may talk himself into calling with some BS. Raise some amount so that in case he has clubs he will call you, like 4600-5000 or so?

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Three-betting the flop small from UTG is going to look really, really strong on that board and I'd say he'd have to be really bad to call with a weaker ace (and no club draw). I think all that calls any type of three bet is sets and clubs, maybe AK (which doesn't seem all that likely).

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moving allin looks strong too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam

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Why? As far as I see it, jamming's going to be some degree of right because we're obviously never going to be that far behind and folding AJ and AQ sometimes would be nice. But what about getting value from the rest of his range?

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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I should say I'm pretty sure he's like never calling a reraise with a worse ace, but he's bad postflop in the sense that he may be raising to see where he's at with one.

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Yeah.. so call. Check/shove any turn I think.

All,
Just cause he likes Axs preflop doesn't mean he's raise/calling a shove with it here. Plus, a jam's a pretty substantial overbet and he can easily marry himself to a hand on the turn.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

This is a situation where I would try to angle shoot by trying to make it look like a call, but reraise small, ie. instead of putting out 1*1000 +3 *100 more, put out 3*1000 and 1*100 or something and act like you made a mistake.

Perhaps no one falls for these, but this is definitely the main thing I am looking forward to in live poker.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

Hmmm I hadn't considered 3-betting small, I think I really like that to keep worse flush draws in and maybe confuse him into donking off more chips with a worse ace.

Anyways for those who like results, I called and the turn is the 5d. I check, he jams ~10K. I tank 2 or 3 minutes into the break muttering about how I wish I just jammed the flop now and eventually muck. He asks if I want to see, I say yes and he shows A4hh.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

5250. Shove the turn.

This line keeps clubs in and gives us another chance to get AQ to make a bad fold.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam

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Why?

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Because you have top pair and the nut flush draw.

Some of you overthink the minutiae of simple decisions way too much. This isn't hard.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

i like a call on flop, shove turn.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam jam

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Why?

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Because you have top pair and the nut flush draw.

Some of you overthink the minutiae of simple decisions way too much. This isn't hard.

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QFT

Why are you flat-calling here? What's your plan on the turn? What's calling you on the turn? The only things calling on the turn are hands that are beating you, which were either beating you before the turn or somehow catch-up, so why let them do that?

So if all you're getting called by on the turn is things that are beating you, wouldn't you at least rather get it in with the nut flush draw and 2 to peel than with 1 to peel? If a flush comes on the turn this could kill your action, anyway. A lot of hands that would've gone in on the flop (or even paid you off if he's actually behind on the flop) are gonna get away from it when you hit a flush and fire.

I see no reason to flat call here and go to a turn because any good card for you is likely to kill action anyway, he could end up out-drawing you, you're going to stack off if he was leading to begin with anyway, etc. etc.

Jam the flop and be very, very happy about it, he's much more likely to call you when behind on the flop than the turn and you're getting looked up by a better hand at both points.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

I have an edge. I'm pressing it.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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I have an edge. I'm pressing it.

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that is terrible logic. can you come up with a real reason for jamming (I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying 'I have an edge' is a terrible reason)?

also timex is hilarious

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

Nath,
I could see shoving as because we are OOP but in position its pretty bad.

Do you expect him to call with worse aces or worse draws?

Do you expect him to fold AQ, AK, Two pair or sets?

I'm not sure the answer but if you are shoving the answer to one of these questions needs to be yes.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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I have an edge. I'm pressing it.

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that is terrible logic.

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No, it's really not. This entire thread is symptomatic of a bad trend among MTT posts and posters; namely, a desire to complicate simple decisions and wrap themselves up in the minutiae of easy problems so they can feel intellectually satisfied about progressing in their game even though they've done nothing to really improve it. Doing anything but jamming here in a desire to be crafty or to come up with a magical line that somehow commits worse draws but folds better aces is just... It's ridiculous.
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can you come up with a real reason for jamming

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WE HAVE TOP PAIR AND THE NUT FLUSH DRAW. WHAT THE [censored]. WHY ARE PEOPLE MAKING THIS HARD.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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Nath,
I could see shoving as because we are OOP but in position its pretty bad.

Do you expect him to call with worse aces or worse draws?

Do you expect him to fold AQ, AK, Two pair or sets?

I'm not sure the answer but if you are shoving the answer to one of these questions needs to be yes.

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I don't give a crap what he has, really. I'm jamming because I have a big draw. Why are so many of you acting like this is a foreign concept?

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

nath man, you're making some really awful arguments in this thread. Just having top pair and nut flush draw != raise all in. And just yelling at us over and over saying that we're overthinking it, for even considering other options, is pretty ridiculous.

edit: a shove seems like the best way to get him to fold a flush draw, also, weak aces. This is not good. I'm not saying a shove is bad, but it's not folding out better hands, and doesnt look like it's going to get a ton of value. I think other lines (reraising smaller, or calling) hsould be able to maximize value vs weaker hands better.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

Ok, I give up. I see everyone's point, but I just think spots like this in tournaments are relatively simple. It's not like we're super deep; in a sizable pot with a big draw and decent FE I move in virtually all the time.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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Ok, I give up. I see everyone's point, but I just think spots like this in tournaments are relatively simple. It's not like we're super deep; in a sizable pot with a big draw and decent FE I move in virtually all the time.

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But your decent FE comes from hands that you crush that will often put more money in if you just call.

Shoving here is soooo much worse than calling. I'm really surprised you don't see that.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

Nath I think making a smaller raise makes it a lot more likely for opponnent to do something stupid.

I can't think of any downside of making a smaller raise. He's less likely to fold a smaller draw. I think he's more much more likely to call/fold with a worse ace than to risk his TOURNEY LIFE on an allin.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

i like timex's line best by far.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

agree with nath 100%

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

Thanks, that really helps the discussion.

edit: did you not see that we were yelling at nath specifically for not defending himself and not because his line was necessarily wrong?

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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Nath,
I could see shoving as because we are OOP but in position its pretty bad.

Do you expect him to call with worse aces or worse draws?

Do you expect him to fold AQ, AK, Two pair or sets?

I'm not sure the answer but if you are shoving the answer to one of these questions needs to be yes.

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I don't give a crap what he has, really. I'm jamming because I have a big draw. Why are so many of you acting like this is a foreign concept?

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I dunno, I really do like raising less than allin. Most guys will never fold something like KTc there which we really really want not to fold. Also we are committing ourselves so no real way we are going to mess up and fold later.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

agree with exit/dan/timex/most of people. Nath, I hate shoving

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

Agree w/ Nath for a few reasons, some he already listed. Another reason I like jaming flop, even tho the line looks really strong, because makes it seem like we're protecting our hand while flat calling screams that we're drawing. Either way for villain to min-raise an UTG raiser he'd have to be really strong and we want to get as much money in on the flop with our big hand/ big draw.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

Didn't I justify why raising/jamming is better? Flat calling what the hell are you doing on the turn if it's a blank? If it's a club? You lose all the value out of your hand by calling.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

I don't understand why people are coming into this thread saying that shoving is better than raising to 5250 or whatever. I somewhat understand Nath's point that the EV differential between raising to 5250 and shoving is not huge but I have not seen one argument for why there would be a bigger edge by shoving and allowing a smaller club draw to fold.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

Raising will get most worst draws to call here and it will also get most hands that beat us to possibly fold (Ak-AQ). With raising the flop and jamming the turn, or just jaming the flop, you most likely do not need to hit you flush to win the hand. Getting all the money in on the flop or the turn (Flop >Turn) will let the hand play it self-out without over complicating the sitiuation.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

I didn't necessarily say raising smaller is worse than shoving, but I think calling is awful awful here.

You HAVE to be raising this flop, and I would probably jam but I don't know which is better.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

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Raising will get most worst draws to call here and it will also get most hands that beat us to possibly fold (Ak-AQ). With raising the flop and jamming the turn, or just jaming the flop, you most likely do not need to hit you flush to win the hand. Getting all the money in on the flop or the turn (Flop >Turn) will let the hand play it self-out without over complicating the sitiuation.

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This is a pretty bad post.

He is not folding AK to our flop raise, draws are not necessarily calling if we shove, and our goal should be to maximize EV and not to play the hand in an uncomplicated manner.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

Bad post noted,
Reason why I mentioned him folding hands beating us is because OP described villain as someone who's bad post flop in a way that he would fold AQ, AK to 3-bet on a draw heavy borad. Other wise, I completely agree that maximizing EV is the goal and not simplifying play.

Re: Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max
 

Seems like a pretty easy check call down. This is a hand where you just let him do all the betting for you, wether it be with weak aces or draws or dominations. Btw if it goes check/check on the turn, Im checking the river to induce a bluff.