donkey players
 

ok last night i was playing a game and i had pocket 4's preflop i go all in with 6500 i get called by a person with AQ off suit. flop comes and nothing the turn nothing then i get rivered with a Q. blinds were 200/400. It seems like i played everything correct. If the dealers i know were saying that i did it correctly but it seems like i cant get to the next level. need some advice

Re: donkey players
 

You failed to mention a few things, like what position you were in, what position he was in, what his stack was, cash game vs. tournament, how many players, etc.

Small pocket pair vs two overcards is only a 6:5 favorite to win. Pushing all in like that screams go away, I don't want a caller, so he probably figured you for a lesser ace or a medium/small PP.

So he called your all in. Going all in elimates the position advantage. If he would have had to make a bet on the flop, he probably would have folded, but being all in, he gets to see all the cards, and the river killed you.

Re: donkey players
 

Well we need a bit more info - stack sizes, reads, how many players, what buy in, etc. However, all in pre flop with 44 doesn't sound like good play.

Re: donkey players
 

Depends on your position, prize structure, and were there antes? There is so much information you're not considering here.

Also, that fact that he caught on the river is irrelevant, you were all in preflop, and only a very slight favorite. In fact, if the guy who called you was in one of the blinds, he probably had the right pot odds to call (although in a lot of tourney situations it's pretty marginal in terms of chipEV and so on).

Re: donkey players
 

Assuming this is a tourney, I think 16 BB is still too deep for open shoving 44. If you had played this for value villain probably folds to a c-bet when flop missed.

Re: donkey players
 

it was a 40/40 buys and i had med size stack he had a larger size stack. i was 2nd to act. but the wierd thing is that this guy had no skills and he kept on rivering people when they went in a pot against this guy. on break we all commenting on him that he was an aweful player. other players have commented on me that i am a solid player and if i go into a hand and raise means that i have a pair or any of the top 20 hands. I played agianst this fool a few times and i quess he just got the best of me this time

Re: donkey players
 

Well, here's a tip then: A big stack donkey isn't going to fold any big Ace or pocket pair preflop.

Re: donkey players
 

So are you saying this tourney has a lot of players left? If so I don't like your shove at all. You already know he calls loose and he has a larger stack. The best you can be if he calls is a coin flip. I think you need to look at your own play more than his. Seems like you were seeking him out because you viewed him as a donkey. You let it affect your play. There is a name for that - tilt.

Re: donkey players
 

I agree with all the posts here...we all make donkey plays at some point in time...you failed to recognize the advantage you had...and left him to only one choice. I'm not railing you here...because I did the same thing on a final table 2 nights ago..given pocket 88...small blind...all folded to me...6 handed. I had 500k chips...3rd in chip position...almost covered by the BB. Instead of making a standard raise...I go all in....duh...of course he's lit up by AK os...how many of you fold AK os to a small blind all in? NO ONE! and you guess it...turn is a K...for the doof award of the day! now of course in my small brain..I'm thinking oh yeah...of course he hits the K..and how could he call that....but in retrospect...it was the right play...why shove with that many chips if you have AA, KK, QQ...etc...had to put me on weak A...or small pockets. So...I think you should evaluate yourself..not the donk if you want to improve...think your plays through...and how this guy is perceiving you based on your previous play...that's how you're going to move forward in your game!

Re: donkey players
 

Realistically, any tournament you win, you're gonna have to win a coinflip or two somewhere along the line. You lost yours this time. Get used to it.

But... you need to study hard and understand when your happy to get in a coinflip and when you should be avoiding them. Roughly, if you have 10BB or less, then flipping is not really objectionable at all. But if you're deeper, you shouldn't be anxious to get into them. (That said, don't be fearful of them either, like a lot of casual players are.)

[ QUOTE ]
other players have commented on me that i am a solid player and if i go into a hand and raise means that i have a pair or any of the top 20 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also note, whoever said this about you or thinks this about you, you should raise their blinds with all kinds of crap for a while and take advantage of it. Novice players fall way too in love with preflop play and think that just because someone is solid preflop means they are a good player. Well, being solid preflop is a step in the progression of a player, but you probably have many steps to go.

Re: donkey players
 

I definately think the open shove with 44 with 16bb is not the best move. As mentioned you have a larger stack (bad player) ahead of you that would probably look you up with two high cards, let alone anyone else with higher PP. You are not in danger yet with 16BB I would have waited for a better opportunity.

You sound like you believe you are making the right moves. My opinion is that you should reviewing your own decisions to make sure you made the right one. If other players make bad moves and win the hand so be it but its your correct decisions that win you $ in the long run.

Also as said above you know your table image. You need to use this against the players that you know are thinking this. Im guessing the bad player you are speaking of only thinks level1 poker (his 2 cards) and not what everyone else has, therefore your image to him is irrelevant.

Re: donkey players
 

when describing a hand: it should go something like this (so that players can help you).


I am playing a $26 tournament. Blinds are 200/400, and I have 6500 chips. I am dealt 44 preflop in the (whatever position) cutoff seat, and I open shove. Is this the best play?

These types of posts give everyone a lot more information to work fof of. Postflop play-- include pot size, your positon, obviously the flop cards, and everything included before.

Re: donkey players
 

You can call him a donk, but in the end, I like his play better than yours. Pushing in early position with 4s? To me, pushing a competitive sized stack, especially in early position, screams, I have a pair of low pockets! I hate chancing the flop, so I don't like the call with AQ, but I stil think his call was less donkish than your push.

I must qualify this with I am a donk as well. You can catch me dumping chips on Poker Stars after 9:00 pacific.

Re: donkey players
 

In poker (and life) the biggest donkey is the one who blames others for his own mistakes.

Re: donkey players
 

I'm a bit puzzled here. If I had 6500 chips or 500K chips and a small pocket pair I would never, I mean never go all in pre-flop. The only time I've done this is when I had AA and a player raised PF, it was folded to me, and after thinking about it, knowing this player, pushed all in. Fortunately, my AAs held up.

But if all you have is 88s or 55s isn't it better to raise appropriately and wait to see what gets tabled before committing all your chips? Does it always have to be a coin flip?

Re: donkey players
 

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I'm a bit puzzled here. If I had 6500 chips or 500K chips and a small pocket pair I would never, I mean never go all in pre-flop.

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never ?? I think the OP is assuming he is nearing short stacked. a few posters have mentioned that 16bb is not in any desperate situation to do this but lets say you were 7BB left then an allin move is appropriate as you still have small folding equity and may not get a better hand than 44 until you are blinded out.

i dont think you can say 'never'

Re: donkey players
 

not sure why to push with 44 with 6500 chips

Re: donkey players
 

With an M of 11, you shouldn't be looking to shove a small pair preflop, and this hand is a showcase of why that is. You're announcing "I have a hand", as other players have told you they now know you have either "Any PP" or a "Top 20 hand" (assuming you mean big cards like AK etc).

Open shoving here, really does scream go away, you wouldn't be doing this with a premium pocket pair generally, and I don't see someone usually playing like this with a hand like AK either.

The hands that are likely to call you either have you crushed, bigger PP's 80% favorite, or are juuuuust behind, the 45/55 coinflip scenario you ended up with.

This play leaves 2 viable outcomes:
1) Everyone folds, you take down the pot and congratulate yourself for winning with the best hand

2) Someone calls and you sweat it out praying for a 4, or praying to hold up against overcards.

Don't be afraid of postflop play. This shoving seems to occur often with players who are not comfortable with their postflop skills, and are weary of small pp's. In fact, I wouldn't criticize you for folding this 44 here. You're in early position, the whole table is left to act, and with and M of 11, do you really want to commit yourself to a pair of 4's. Generally I would not. Hope this helps.

Re: donkey players
 

Which player in this hand is supposed to be the donkey?

Re: donkey players
 

I have to think that the equity of this move is relatively light, probably even negative. Both of you lose here and the ones that probably gain the most are the players not involved in the hand. Of course the guy has some fold equity, but he has to be aware of this fact to use it, and you have made it clear he was a reasonably weak player that called loose anyhow. As a coin-flip in a relatively large-stacked situation, you got your money in bad in terms of equity me thinks.

Re: donkey players
 

[ QUOTE ]
You failed to mention a few things, like what position you were in, what position he was in, what his stack was, cash game vs. tournament, how many players, etc.

Small pocket pair vs two overcards is only a 6:5 favorite to win. Pushing all in like that screams go away, I don't want a caller, so he probably figured you for a lesser ace or a medium/small PP.

So he called your all in. Going all in elimates the position advantage. If he would have had to make a bet on the flop, he probably would have folded, but being all in, he gets to see all the cards, and the river killed you.

[/ QUOTE ]

let's face it... unless you're short-stacked in a tourney...
going all in with small pocket pairs is BAD.

Might as well go all in with any 2 cards and then say
"what did i do wrong?!?!" when you lose.

Re: donkey players
 

Donkeys are great. All you have to do is get a monster hand and the hand will practically play itself.

Good players love donkeys. When you're up against a donkey, you have one less thing to worry about: extracting maximum value from your good hands.

The downside is that when you lose to a donk, you lose big. This is because "you" (the player who complains about donks) are not good at minimizing your losses.

Re: donkey players
 

That was for OP

Re: donkey players
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a bit puzzled here. If I had 6500 chips or 500K chips and a small pocket pair I would never, I mean never go all in pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

never ?? I think the OP is assuming he is nearing short stacked. a few posters have mentioned that 16bb is not in any desperate situation to do this but lets say you were 7BB left then an allin move is appropriate as you still have small folding equity and may not get a better hand than 44 until you are blinded out.

i dont think you can say 'never'

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, sorry, you're correct, I shouldn't have said never. But I wasn't thinking in terms of being short stacked and without knowing the other stacks, 6500 and 500K chips doesn't seem SS'd to me.

I have gone all in SS'd with pocket 9s PF, and coin-tossed PF with pocket 10s against AJ, against a player whom I knew would go all in with at least a J. In both cases my hands held up.

But I have played against players who in the early stages of the game would go all in with pocket 2s just to take the blinds, or as has been mentioned, because they're not sure of their post-flop play.

So I guess I'm willing to play a small PP if the price isn't too high to post-flop and play strongly after.

Re: donkey players
 

you callin' me a donk?

Re: donkey players
 

[ QUOTE ]
you callin' me a donk?

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Haven't you seen Crocodile Dundee II? Its great to have a Donk!