What?
 

No reads on villain, but the dude behind me is 64/3/1.4. This one's got me totally stumped.

Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $57.95
BB: $85.41
UTG: $23.65
MP: $89.67
CO: $58.39
Hero (BTN): $50.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.00</font>, 2 folds, MP calls $2.50, CO calls $2.50

Flop: ($9.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
MP checks, <font color="red">CO bets $10.00</font>, Hero?

Re: What?
 

Raise. "ZOMG, I HIT MY ACE!!"

Re: What?
 

I'd call once and see what happens.

Re: What?
 

I think i call. yes we are giving super loose guy odds on a draw but any sort of raise has you pot committed to call anything.

Re: What?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call once and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does it benefit us to call of 1/5th of our stack and leave ourselves with no idea where we stand? This is what Im saying, I dont think we can "just call once" here.

Re: What?
 

raise all in

Re: What?
 

Call and re-evaluate on turn.

Re: What?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd call once and see what happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does it benefit us to call of 1/5th of our stack and leave ourselves with no idea where we stand? This is what Im saying, I dont think we can "just call once" here.

[/ QUOTE ]

calling is terrible here.fold or raise

Re: What?
 

Fold &gt; arr-in &gt; call.

I really don't see what calling accomplishes. Are we folding if he pops us again on the turn? The only reason I would consider calling here is to push any non-spade.

Re: What?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Call and re-evaluate on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

SB: $57.95
BB: $85.41
UTG: $23.65
MP: $89.67
CO: $58.39
Hero (BTN): $50.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.00</font>, 2 folds, MP calls $2.50, CO calls $2.50

Flop: ($9.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
MP checks, <font color="red">CO bets $10.00</font>, Hero calls $10, MP folds.

Turn: ($39.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">CO bets $15.00</font>, Hero?

Re: What?
 

Shove turn as played.
Although if I've been running like you have, I would just fold to reduce varience.

Re: What?
 

Push turn.

Re: What?
 

call flop
shove turn
seems easy?

Re: What?
 

I folded the flop, I just fabricated the turn as an example of how bad it is to just call on the flop

Re: What?
 

Here's what my thought process would probably look like
1) Look at pot/stack ratio and our hand
Ratio is &lt; 5:1, pretty much excellent for a TP2K kind of hand -&gt; We can felt it

2) Look at villains ranges and board texture
Pretty drawy board with two possible gutshots and a FD out there. The As makes the FD unlikely to be to the nuts (I don't think it matters at these levels since flush = nuts)

We don't really know much about the ranges of villains. 64/3 can have close to any two depending on how liberal he calls when his limp was raised (some people never fold once they have invested money etc), note that CO got good odds to call once MP had called so his range should be a little wider
No VPIP/PFR% for the other guy and we don't know if they raise any PP or limp the small ones.
I'm willing to put both of them on
a) Small PPs say 22-66/77
b) Suited connectors of sorts
c) Ax and Axs hands where x &lt; T/J (as they usually should have raised, especially CO)
b) Any two suited cards for some villains
CO is less likely to have Ax or a PP here if he is a good player since he'd probably raise that hoping to pick up blinds+limpers money
Small PPs are least likely for both since most people tend to raise them

Options:
1) Raise the donkbet (minraise + push on turn if called) - my usual line since donkbet = weakish middle pair kind of hands a lot of times (assuming non thinking player). However if I have no other read a pot sized donkbet into a 3 way pot is highly unusual.
The usual weakish ones are between 1/2 and 2/3 the pot

2) Call - I'd do this only to bet if a spade comes on the turn. Big donk bet on 2 flush boards seems to mean "ZOMG I have a hand and don't want to get drawn out on". If you have a read that villain is afraid of flushes hitting and weakish + able to lay a hand down you can go this route.
If the third player calls as well I probably just check/give up on the turn

What beats us:
55 (99 is unlikely as he would have raised PF, 95 is unlikely ubless suited), A5, A9 (AK is unlikely since he would have raised)
What we want villain to have:
A2, A3, A4, A6, A7, A8, AT, AJ
Also possible:
3s2s, 4s3s, 7s6s, 8s7s, 9sXs

note: With a pot to stack ratio of &lt; 5:1 I really don't mind felting this. Once we call we may or may not be commited anyways

Re: What?
 

[ QUOTE ]
call flop
shove turn
seems easy?

[/ QUOTE ]

So youre calling the flop to make sure the FD doesnt hit?

Re: What?
 

I think either fold flop or call flop and jam most turns are ok. Raising flop sucks because we want the donk to overcall.

Re: What?
 

[ QUOTE ]
With a pot to stack ratio of &lt; 5:1 I really don't mind felting this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont see it that way, we are 100bb deep, we are risking our entire stack, and we are likely to be headsup ie. winning a pot of not much more than 200bb. As far as Im concerned this would still be "playing a weak wa/wb hand for stacks"

Re: What?
 

Ok so you only raise PF to pick up the blinds+limpers money PF or to take it down with a cbet?
What was your plan for the hand if both players call (which is quite common)?

Are you willing to give up TP2K every time you face agression?
Do you think a PS donk bet is more scarry than a CR in this spot because the CR is a FD often?

This hand is quite interesting because this is the kind of spot where I tend to have problems, too.

Re: What?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok so you only raise PF to pick up the blinds+limpers money PF or to take it down with a cbet?
What was your plan for the hand if both players call (which is quite common)?

Are you willing to give up TP2K every time you face agression?
Do you think a PS donk bet is more scarry than a CR in this spot because the CR is a FD often?

This hand is quite interesting because this is the kind of spot where I tend to have problems, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more I think about this hand the more I'm inclined to stack off and look for a line to get the most money in. Obviously we're not worried about the fish, but we do want him to come along with 2nd pair and Ax and whatnot. And CO's potsize donk looks retarded here, because this spot was made for a C/R with any hand that can beat AQ. I think this bet is air/draw/some stupid [censored] like AT most always.

Re: What?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I folded the flop, I just fabricated the turn as an example of how bad it is to just call on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling flop is neither bad nor horrible.

Re: What?
 

I think his bet is somethin he conciders to be stron and wants to protect vs a draw.
In the mind of the donk, cbet is not automatic so he's thinking along the lines of "ZOMG I have TP or ZOMG I have 2P but I can't let him check behind and draw out"

The smaller donk bet is usually a weakish middle pair type of hand or someone pissed at etting cbet out of every pot on the flop but PSB not sure.
What site was it on/is there a bet pot button?

Re: What?
 

I agree that donks don't always expect a cbet on a lot of boards and might take this line when they obviously shouldn't, but this is a pretty raggedy A high flop. If CO has a strong hand here, in my experience he's getting pretty excited about us hitting TPGK and trapping our money.

Re: What?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I folded the flop, I just fabricated the turn as an example of how bad it is to just call on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

lol i dissagree


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
call flop
shove turn
seems easy?

[/ QUOTE ]

So youre calling the flop to make sure the FD doesnt hit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im calling flop because If I raise and get it all on the flop in Ill rarely be a big favorite and either a dog or a small favortie

if i get it in on turn ill be a much bigger favorite vs his range);

Re: What?
 

This is a pretty weird position to be in. I've trolled through my database to find something similar but I couldn't pick anything which quite matches this scenario on the flop. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, this is generally the classic check-raise position if you're beat. Overcard on the flop and then the donk bets tend to come out. Ok my database is admittedly quite small but my question to those with large samples, is (a) is this a common situation i.e Top top pair good kicker gets donked into? and (b) if not, a fold here should be fine as it could not possibly be a significant leak (if a leak at all). SO not unhappy with a fold here given that it seems (to me anyway) to be an uncommon combination of events (pot-size donk bet on an ace-high flop with no reads). I like the fold here - I don't do it often enough but I like it.

Re: What?
 

This is a very tough spot. Anything we do sucks. That said, I fold. If the player behind me was a normal player, this would be an EASY fold, but because he's a loose donk it makes it a little tougher to let it go.

I think raising is likely to get us stacked on the flop, and calling is likely to see another bet on the turn.

Also in general, donkbets in multiway flops are scary as hell

Re: What?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's what my thought process would probably look like
1) Look at pot/stack ratio and our hand
Ratio is &lt; 5:1, pretty much excellent for a TP2K kind of hand -&gt; We can felt it

2) Look at villains ranges and board texture
Pretty drawy board with two possible gutshots and a FD out there. The As makes the FD unlikely to be to the nuts (I don't think it matters at these levels since flush = nuts)

We don't really know much about the ranges of villains. 64/3 can have close to any two depending on how liberal he calls when his limp was raised (some people never fold once they have invested money etc), note that CO got good odds to call once MP had called so his range should be a little wider
No VPIP/PFR% for the other guy and we don't know if they raise any PP or limp the small ones.
I'm willing to put both of them on
a) Small PPs say 22-66/77
b) Suited connectors of sorts
c) Ax and Axs hands where x &lt; T/J (as they usually should have raised, especially CO)
b) Any two suited cards for some villains
CO is less likely to have Ax or a PP here if he is a good player since he'd probably raise that hoping to pick up blinds+limpers money
Small PPs are least likely for both since most people tend to raise them

Options:
1) Raise the donkbet (minraise + push on turn if called) - my usual line since donkbet = weakish middle pair kind of hands a lot of times (assuming non thinking player). However if I have no other read a pot sized donkbet into a 3 way pot is highly unusual.
The usual weakish ones are between 1/2 and 2/3 the pot

2) Call - I'd do this only to bet if a spade comes on the turn. Big donk bet on 2 flush boards seems to mean "ZOMG I have a hand and don't want to get drawn out on". If you have a read that villain is afraid of flushes hitting and weakish + able to lay a hand down you can go this route.
If the third player calls as well I probably just check/give up on the turn

What beats us:
55 (99 is unlikely as he would have raised PF, 95 is unlikely ubless suited), A5, A9 (AK is unlikely since he would have raised)
What we want villain to have:
A2, A3, A4, A6, A7, A8, AT, AJ
Also possible:
3s2s, 4s3s, 7s6s, 8s7s, 9sXs

note: With a pot to stack ratio of &lt; 5:1 I really don't mind felting this. Once we call we may or may not be commited anyways

[/ QUOTE ]

tl;dr

Re: What?
 

are we playing AK the same way?

Re: What?
 

Calling a pot size donk with nooooo redraws is pretty bad, but I could be wrong. We're getting an SPR of 5 versus villian so that's about what we want in order to commit with TPTK even against a uNL unknown, but we have TP2K so I'd fold and push sometimes provided I have the slightest bit of info on how villian plays. I push AK here however. Calling makes the rest of the hand so difficult.

Re: What?
 

Oh god. I did't even read the hand properly. If it was just you and CO, no MP, then call, re-evaluate turn.

As played I fold here.

Re: What?
 

The size of the donk bet worries me somewhat, but I'd be willing to get it in here. I assume an unknown would raise AK, AA, and 99 preflop to punish the limper, and would just as likely checkraise the remaining strong made hands that he would have limp/called (not that an unknown always does it, but that would be my expectation). I would call for a couple reasons: keep the donk behind you in the pot and encourage CO to bet again on the turn with a worse hand.

This is a tough spot, though. Folding has to be a pretty viable option (if not the best option).

Re: What?
 

I call, hope MP also calls and get it in on a blank turn. Folding here just seems awfully weak.

Re: What?
 

If I have no reads, I let it go this time, but i keep a close watch on him.

Re: What?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's what my thought process would probably look like
1) Look at pot/stack ratio and our hand
Ratio is &lt; 5:1, pretty much excellent for a TP2K kind of hand -&gt; We can felt it

2) Look at villains ranges and board texture
Pretty drawy board with two possible gutshots and a FD out there. The As makes the FD unlikely to be to the nuts (I don't think it matters at these levels since flush = nuts)

We don't really know much about the ranges of villains. 64/3 can have close to any two depending on how liberal he calls when his limp was raised (some people never fold once they have invested money etc), note that CO got good odds to call once MP had called so his range should be a little wider
No VPIP/PFR% for the other guy and we don't know if they raise any PP or limp the small ones.
I'm willing to put both of them on
a) Small PPs say 22-66/77
b) Suited connectors of sorts
c) Ax and Axs hands where x &lt; T/J (as they usually should have raised, especially CO)
b) Any two suited cards for some villains
CO is less likely to have Ax or a PP here if he is a good player since he'd probably raise that hoping to pick up blinds+limpers money
Small PPs are least likely for both since most people tend to raise them

Options:
1) Raise the donkbet (minraise + push on turn if called) - my usual line since donkbet = weakish middle pair kind of hands a lot of times (assuming non thinking player). However if I have no other read a pot sized donkbet into a 3 way pot is highly unusual.
The usual weakish ones are between 1/2 and 2/3 the pot

2) Call - I'd do this only to bet if a spade comes on the turn. Big donk bet on 2 flush boards seems to mean "ZOMG I have a hand and don't want to get drawn out on". If you have a read that villain is afraid of flushes hitting and weakish + able to lay a hand down you can go this route.
If the third player calls as well I probably just check/give up on the turn

What beats us:
55 (99 is unlikely as he would have raised PF, 95 is unlikely ubless suited), A5, A9 (AK is unlikely since he would have raised)
What we want villain to have:
A2, A3, A4, A6, A7, A8, AT, AJ
Also possible:
3s2s, 4s3s, 7s6s, 8s7s, 9sXs

note: With a pot to stack ratio of &lt; 5:1 I really don't mind felting this. Once we call we may or may not be commited anyways

[/ QUOTE ]

tl;dr

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to derail the thread, and maybe I'm missing a joke (no surprise), but I disagree....I think the responses like this are awesome, as it shows the thinking that goes into the decision, not just the decision. I wish there were more responses like that one.

/hijack

Re: What?
 

it was tl;dr for me.

Re: What?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No reads on villain, but the dude behind me is 64/3/1.4. This one's got me totally stumped.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I just moved up to NL50 and I am a solid, but not very good player. If you, very likely a better player than I am, feels stumped, you should probably fold.

We could talk about WA/WB situtions, ranges, villain's fishy stats and so on.

But basically, you are facing a situation where you are likely playing for stacks - and you don't like this at all.

Fold and bust him later, if nobody is faster.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: What?
 

How often do we see Ax for 2 pair?

Re: What?
 

Meh... any option will do, but it is very villain dependent. Here's my thoughts.

- If villain donks FD's/combodraws I like a raise.

- If villain donks weaker aces (which are def. in his range) I like a call and reraise turn, but I think a raise isn't too bad, just less value if he folds.

- Naturally if villain mostly has trips/twopair if he donks I'll fold.

Someone with this stats I think I'll raise (and fold to a reraise), because I think there's a lot of weak aces in his range and he'll reraise a lot of the time we're beat. Yes, we lose our raise to find out, but that might be cheaper than most other lines where we're beat already.

If he calls and donks again on the turn I think we're beat most of the time and fold.

So my plan is to check behind or fold the turn and a call or bet the river if checked to.

If I know he will not likely bet again on the turn if he we have him beat I'll call and bet the turn myself if checked to.

BTW: This shows how difficult it is to play against if you donk a little more than your monsters.

Re: What?
 

whoops.... misread and stats were on villain. Same goes without a read, I guess. That dude behind you doesn't worry me too much, he's probably calling with worse aces and only making this more profitable.

Re: What?
 

i'd normally raise the flop but i'm happy to keep donkey face behind you in the pot, so i probably call. our equity even against both their hands should be pretty good.

then get it in on most turns.