Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

Guy is 18/14, rdog on stars if anyone knows him. seems like a nit, and I dont know much else. He 3b my utg open once OTB I folded. No history, im playing laggy and running the table over for the most part. aside from sets I dont see wtf he could really have here so.. easy 3b bluff?

Poker Stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP: $68
fees (CO): $347.60
BTN: $224.10
SB: $289.50
BB: $116.75
UTG: $105

Pre-Flop: 6http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 6http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif dealt to fees (CO)
UTG folds, MP calls $2, <font color="red">fees raises to $10</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $9, 2 folds

Flop: ($24) 8http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/club.gif 2http://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif Ahttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">fees bets $16</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $48</font>, <font color="red">fees raises to $115</font>

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

I just fold. If I'm thinking of the right guy I don't really think he gets out of line much.

He might play a f draw like this in which case I it should be fine since he pretty much has to fold despite likely having decent equity. I'm just not sure if he is capable of of this or capable of folding if he can have a flush draw here.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

nice hand

if he c/r range is wide.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

meh

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

if he can check raise with an ace and not fold that ace to our 3-bet then i don't like it much.

don't u think that he check-raises draws also?

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
if he can check raise with an ace and not fold that ace to our 3-bet then i don't like it much.

don't u think that he check-raises draws also?

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing a big ace like this and then folding would be terrible.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

Yeah I dont think hes gonna get fancy pancy and show up with AK or even AQ.. MAYBE AJ, but c/ring with intention to get it in is more of a HU thing with TPGK, I dont think 6max boys are on that level. only draw is like KQ or KJdd i guess i dont think he calls that much hes a nit

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

Don't like it vs a nit.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

I bet bigger here

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
seems like a nit

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd probably just let it go then. if he really is a nit then sets aren't that infrequent here, and if he's not a total nit diamonds, sets, air, and maybe non-diamond suited aces are in his range.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
meh

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah pretty much

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

i'd prefer to do this on a rainbow board

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

So much for the whole "When a LAG finally gets his stack in, he usually has the goods" motto...

Just fold flop. He's a little nitty to be bluffing here a lot and he certainly isn't the type to fold an Ace if he took this line with it.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'd prefer to do this on a rainbow board

[/ QUOTE ]

Same. I've gotten a chance to try this several times against nits check raising me on stuff like A93 rainbow boards. They've folded to the 3-bet every time so far, so I'd guess this is very +EV (thanks whoever wrote the post that convinced nits to start check raising these boards with no balancing!). But the flush draw is enough of a reason for me to not do it here since he could be semi-bluffing a draw/combo draw.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'd prefer to do this on a rainbow board

[/ QUOTE ]

Same. I've gotten a chance to try this several times against nits check raising me on stuff like A93 rainbow boards. They've folded to the 3-bet every time so far, so I'd guess this is very +EV (thanks whoever wrote the post that convinced nits to start check raising these boards!). But the flush draw is enough of a reason for me to not do it here since he could be semi-bluffing a draw/combo draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, that was me i think. i also said to 3bet bluff too so i am really creating a cycle of TAG on TAG violence, who knows where it will end

the point is if a TAG c/r on a Axxr board, they pretty much have a set or nothing, so you can 3bet them liberally.

i think nuts/air lines are so easily exploitable, thats why mergin' your range aejones style is important against thinking players

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'd prefer to do this on a rainbow board

[/ QUOTE ]

Same. I've gotten a chance to try this several times against nits check raising me on stuff like A93 rainbow boards. They've folded to the 3-bet every time so far, so I'd guess this is very +EV (thanks whoever wrote the post that convinced nits to start check raising these boards!). But the flush draw is enough of a reason for me to not do it here since he could be semi-bluffing a draw/combo draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, that was me i think. i also said to 3bet bluff too so i am really creating a cycle of TAG on TAG violence, who knows where it will end

the point is if a TAG c/r on a Axxr board, they pretty much have a set or nothing, so you can 3bet them liberally.

i think nuts/air lines are so easily exploitable, thats why mergin' your range aejones style is important against thinking players

[/ QUOTE ]

Against TAGs I mix it up sometimes and just call from the BB with AQ/AK vs. late opens. I do so with the intention of c/ring a lot of flops, especially A-high flops. Ironically, I get a lot of folds when I just have 2 overs and a lot of action when I have TPTK, lol. It's like a dream come true.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'd prefer to do this on a rainbow board

[/ QUOTE ]

Same. I've gotten a chance to try this several times against nits check raising me on stuff like A93 rainbow boards. They've folded to the 3-bet every time so far, so I'd guess this is very +EV (thanks whoever wrote the post that convinced nits to start check raising these boards!). But the flush draw is enough of a reason for me to not do it here since he could be semi-bluffing a draw/combo draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, that was me i think. i also said to 3bet bluff too so i am really creating a cycle of TAG on TAG violence, who knows where it will end

the point is if a TAG c/r on a Axxr board, they pretty much have a set or nothing, so you can 3bet them liberally.

i think nuts/air lines are so easily exploitable, thats why mergin' your range aejones style is important against thinking players

[/ QUOTE ]

yo man, don't take credit where credit is due. That was my post which i stole from eldiable or whoever. and fwiw, you're all welcome.

to be honest, it's better ot check-raise on K high boards because nits have less kings in their range...and i'm totally serious.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'd prefer to do this on a rainbow board

[/ QUOTE ]

Same. I've gotten a chance to try this several times against nits check raising me on stuff like A93 rainbow boards. They've folded to the 3-bet every time so far, so I'd guess this is very +EV (thanks whoever wrote the post that convinced nits to start check raising these boards!). But the flush draw is enough of a reason for me to not do it here since he could be semi-bluffing a draw/combo draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, that was me i think. i also said to 3bet bluff too so i am really creating a cycle of TAG on TAG violence, who knows where it will end

the point is if a TAG c/r on a Axxr board, they pretty much have a set or nothing, so you can 3bet them liberally.

i think nuts/air lines are so easily exploitable, thats why mergin' your range aejones style is important against thinking players

[/ QUOTE ]

Against TAGs I mix it up sometimes and just call from the BB with AQ/AK vs. late opens. I do so with the intention of c/ring a lot of flops, especially A-high flops. Ironically, I get a lot of folds when I just have 2 overs and a lot of action when I have TPTK, lol. It's like a dream come true.

[/ QUOTE ]

qft

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

sorry paul. linky?

alot of theory posts have ideas stolen from others

and i also like sometimes calling with AK/AQ against a button open. whenever i say that i get people saying that i should always 3bet these hands, which seems ridiculous to me

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

don't like it vs him. I'd be shocked if this specific guy had anything that wasn't a set.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
So much for the whole "When a LAG finally gets his stack in, he usually has the goods" motto...

Just fold flop. He's a little nitty to be bluffing here a lot and he certainly isn't the type to fold an Ace if he took this line with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we translating these stats as him making moves far less frequently than most? Do you guys see what I'm saying when I say that his line is ehhh b/c his range for c/ring a legit hand is squarely 88/22 and FD's, as 2pr and likely big aces are not is his range as he is likely 3betting these.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
sorry paul. linky?

alot of theory posts have ideas stolen from others

and i also like sometimes calling with AK/AQ against a button open. whenever i say that i get people saying that i should always 3bet these hands, which seems ridiculous to me

[/ QUOTE ]

can't find it. some guy who coaches i guess, made a post about getting your won$ without show down stat up. And then said more or less to start check-rasing flops and float more and what not. It was a long post.

So i gave an example, where check-raising a lag buttons open on an A high dry flop would be +EV as long as Villain folds everything less than a pair of Aces.

it's actually very basic stuff.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
That was my post which i stole from eldiable or whoever. and fwiw, you're all welcome.

to be honest, it's better ot check-raise on K high boards because nits have less kings in their range...and i'm totally serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the original el diablo post from msnl
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6345942

and yes this works great
1. as a bluff v most people; and
2. as a great way to stack aggros who steal with weak aces and then won't believe you

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So much for the whole "When a LAG finally gets his stack in, he usually has the goods" motto...

Just fold flop. He's a little nitty to be bluffing here a lot and he certainly isn't the type to fold an Ace if he took this line with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we translating these stats as him making moves far less frequently than most? Do you guys see what I'm saying when I say that his line is ehhh b/c his range for c/ring a legit hand is squarely 88/22 and FD's, as 2pr and likely big aces are not is his range as he is likely 3betting these.

[/ QUOTE ]
Think you need a read to believe a nit will c/r an a-hi flop with air though, otherwise he still has set/fd/2-pair 100%. I don't think a guy like this will c/r the flop often at all without a read tbh. And with a fd he'll either push our call given your 3-bet size.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

call, $65 on turn, but don't do this to me at my tables or you'll regret it

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
call, $65 on turn, but don't do this to me at my tables or you'll regret it

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're going to make a play this is the way to, yup.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So much for the whole "When a LAG finally gets his stack in, he usually has the goods" motto...

Just fold flop. He's a little nitty to be bluffing here a lot and he certainly isn't the type to fold an Ace if he took this line with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we translating these stats as him making moves far less frequently than most? Do you guys see what I'm saying when I say that his line is ehhh b/c his range for c/ring a legit hand is squarely 88/22 and FD's, as 2pr and likely big aces are not is his range as he is likely 3betting these.

[/ QUOTE ]
Think you need a read to believe a nit will c/r an a-hi flop with air though, otherwise he still has set/fd/2-pair 100%. I don't think a guy like this will c/r the flop often at all without a read tbh.

[/ QUOTE ]

0 over 900 hands.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
call, $65 on turn, but don't do this to me at my tables or you'll regret it

[/ QUOTE ]

So if villain bets turn, you fold? (We are IP).

Seems bad, but then I have no idea how often players like this follow up their bluffs on the turn. If they never do, this is a great line.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

I think this is okay, and I'd call a push.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

And to add he's probably usually folding pocket 2's preflop anyway. If he calls here I'd shutdown on a non 6 turn.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

Against the vast majority of TAGs this is pretty much printing money. I have no idea why people advocate c/ring on A hi boards since an Ace is the least likely card to be in your OOP calling range. If you're one of the guys that calls with AK preflop and c/rs a lot, you're one level ahead and I tip my hat to you sir enjoy the stack. I've been doing this for like 50k hands or so and haven't seen anyone do this yet.

One thing that I have to add is that if you do elect to call flop to bluff the turn depends on two things
1) If the turn comes a diamond, we're done with the hand obv, people c/r bluff with equity as opposed to stone cold way more.
2) If the turn come a blank, TIMING is hugely relevant. Think of your typical decent but not great TAG sitting behind the computer thinking, 'oh yeah, he's cbetting with air so much that I can check/raise profitably ooooooh baby, [censored] he called, what the [censored] do I do now?' He then takes time to try and figure out your range, his represented range, lots of stuff, and then bluffs/doesn't bluff. Very few people at SSNL make this bluff with a multistreet plan.

Turn bet in &lt; 3 sec = autofold IMO.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

This really isn't as people think. If he's solid, he knows that he cannot c/c profitably with PP's that haven't hit a set. Therefore, he is forced to turn hands like 55 into bluffs if he wishes to call preflop. He never has A8/A2 here, and there just aren't that many combos of 22/88 at all. I like this.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

[ QUOTE ]
This really isn't as people think. If he's solid, he knows that he cannot c/c profitably with PP's that haven't hit a set. Therefore, he is forced to turn hands like 55 into bluffs if he wishes to call preflop. He never has A8/A2 here, and there just aren't that many combos of 22/88 at all. I like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

87dd? If hero thinks [ QUOTE ]
If he's solid, he knows that he cannot c/c profitably with PP's that haven't hit a set. Therefore, he is forced to turn hands like 55 into bluffs if he wishes to call preflop.

[/ QUOTE ] I would think it would qualify as a read then and not describe him as a nit. Also there are ways to play pps, even 55 although more rare, in ways other then as a set or air. Majority of grinders imo at these stakes just set mine in these spots without a second thought.

I don't like it very much b/c no one ever folds a flush draw when they raise and this guy could have like KQdd and not want to fold, and this guy is a described as a nit and so far has no real evidence to prove that he makes any moves at all, which many dont at SSNL.

Re: Opp just c/r\'d A high board
 

Since he's a nit, we're not giving him any credit for trapping with AK, maybe even AA? Fees says he's been running over the table; did villain decide to play "traffic cop" and figure TPTK is as good as a set here?