debate
 

this is quick debate between myself and a lurker who was hero in this line...

6 handed game, villain is non-thinking laggy/payoff type and hero has not played many hands thus far...

villain raises in late position, hero 3-bets 77 from bb, villain calls...

flop: JT9, hero bets villain calls
turn: 7, hero bets, villain raises
river: Q, hero? b/f or c/c was our debate, thanks for the input

ignore all other streets except river, its just debate regarding that spot not the entire line...

Re: debate
 

Bet/folding is better than check/calling.

Re: debate
 

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Bet/folding is better than check/calling.

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Much better in this spot.

Re: debate
 

It depends on what you mean by non thinking. Do you mean he never gets creative or that he is capable of spazzing on the big streets, but out of desperation rather than logic.

Re: debate
 

I would be also interested in your 3 bet preflop. Is Villain's range wide enough that pocket 7's beats a good part of it? I am assuming u would just call in the BB against TAGs...

Re: debate
 

Yeah bet fold seems good.

Re: debate
 

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Bet/folding is better than check/calling.

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i never thought of this, but its brilliant. nh TheDude.

seems i learn something new about poker every week on 2+2.

Re: debate
 

my assumption is that the 3 bet preflop isnt because we are greatly ahead of the range but simply to make the hand easier to play... my non-thinking description is probably a bit vague, i mean he doesnt think about the game outside of the game and probably has no idea why we bet or check specific cards... he plays his cards

Re: debate
 

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I would be also interested in your 3 bet preflop. Is Villain's range wide enough that pocket 7's beats a good part of it? I am assuming u would just call in the BB against TAGs...

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Not sure if this is a level, but 77 is a monster in a 6-handed game against a late position raiser.

Re: debate
 

Villian raises on turn when the 7 hits? The only hand that helps villian with the 7 contains an 8(or a really bizarre two pair).

So, villian likely flopped a straight, a larger set or two pair and decided to slow play (yes he might slow play two pair if he's really non-thinking)

If he's laggy a pocket pair gets re-raised before the flop.

I think two pair is likely enough here that folding an 8BB pot seems silly against a live non-thinking player.

So if we get 9:1 to c/c and we are much less than 50/50 we are ahead and villain may continue to raise 2 pair--isnt c/c better than b/f? b/c seems spewy to me. If two pair, it might be a free showdown.

Re: debate
 

I know you are not asking about the other streets, but I can't help myself: First of all, the preflop raise is right. You are way ahead most of the time in this situation.

On the turn, I would four bet for value/information. Then the river is much easier to play.

The river sucks, obviously, cuz now we are beat by a king or an 8. But it is a scare card for him, too. So if he only has an 8 he might not bet...but if you bet, he still calls with his 8, either way you lose.

If he only has two pair, then he can't bet either so you lose one bet.

At this point, I want to get to showdown so I would c/c because I'm not very good a laying down hands!

Re: debate
 

I don't really understand a river bet here; the river did not help hero. If hero thinks he is ahead, why didn't he reraise the turn? The combination of just calling on the turn and then betting the river only makes sense if he thinks he can get a better hand to fold, which I think is not likely. Even with the scare card, villian is likely to call with an 8 or a bigger set.

Re: debate
 

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I don't really understand a river bet here; the river did not help hero. If hero thinks he is ahead, why didn't he reraise the turn? The combination of just calling on the turn and then betting the river only makes sense if he thinks he can get a better hand to fold, which I think is not likely. Even with the scare card, villian is likely to call with an 8 or a bigger set.

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hero may or may not be ahead on the turn, but its to avoid paying 2 extra bets on the turn to draw to a boat if villain has a straight.

the river bet is to prevent 2 pair from checking behind but is also a very easy fold if you get raised.

imo the only decision here is to b/f or to c/f. c/c is bad, and i only think we can c/f with a really solid read.

Re: debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really understand a river bet here; the river did not help hero. If hero thinks he is ahead, why didn't he reraise the turn? The combination of just calling on the turn and then betting the river only makes sense if he thinks he can get a better hand to fold, which I think is not likely. Even with the scare card, villian is likely to call with an 8 or a bigger set.

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this river makes villains value betting range much much smaller than a deuce would.

Re: debate
 

b/f is great here

we can easily have a K here
given our action on the previous streets

we are unlikely to get raised by an 8
and can still get value from a worse hand

Re: debate
 

[ QUOTE ]
b/f is great here

we can easily have a K here
given our action on the previous streets

we are unlikely to get raised by an 8
and can still get value from a worse hand

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Okay.

Re: debate
 

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I don't really understand a river bet here; the river did not help hero. If hero thinks he is ahead, why didn't he reraise the turn? The combination of just calling on the turn and then betting the river only makes sense if he thinks he can get a better hand to fold, which I think is not likely. Even with the scare card, villian is likely to call with an 8 or a bigger set.

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this river makes villains value betting range much much smaller than a deuce would.

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I understand this, but wouldn't it make his calling range smaller as well? I am not sure two pair is going to call this river.

Re: debate
 

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Bet/folding is better than check/calling.

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Dude,

Why the stop 'n' go? If we're leading the river, why aren't we 3-betting the turn? If we're calling the turn raise, why come to life on a horrible river card?

Re: debate
 

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Why the stop 'n' go? If we're leading the river, why aren't we 3-betting the turn?

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The question in the OP had nothing to do with turn action. In fact, he specifically asked us to not comment on prior streets.

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If we're calling the turn raise, why come to life on a horrible river card?

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There are a whole bunch of worse hands villain can have that will call a bet but check behind. It's perfectly reasonable for us to have a K in our hand, so it's unlikely we're going to get bluffed off the best hand.

Against most opponents, I think this is a check/fold situation. But the opponent is described as laggy, and it's entirely beside the point. The OP asked for a which-of-these-two-options-is-better reply. I gave him exactly that.

Re: debate
 

I guess I was thinking along the lines of Private Joker, but I certainly can see the opposition's points as well.

I do think it is legitimate to ask why a river bet makes sense in relation to the turn action, even if we are not specifically criticizing the turn action.

Although I don't exactly like the options we are given or the way the hand has been played so far, I really don't like putting in another bet here and still maybe not even being able to see a showdown. If villain was bluff-raising (or being very aggressive with two pair), he might do the same on the river.

Re: debate
 

just to clarify: i did not play the hand, i was sweating...

imo no better hands fold, no worse hands bet

imo we are putting in one bet on the river, and i think its more likely villain has a hand he will payoff with than bluff with..

joker, the argument isn't for a stop and go... the argument is that the river card is ideal for the b/f given our line and potential hands villain can have... i.e. if the river is the 2c i think c/c is better than b/f because that card wont freeze worse hands from betting and doesnt prevent marginally better hands from raising

Re: debate
 

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Why the stop 'n' go? If we're leading the river, why aren't we 3-betting the turn? If we're calling the turn raise, why come to life on a horrible river card?

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We don't 3-bet the turn because it would suck to get 4-bet with so many outs.

We come to life on a horrible river card, because it's near impossible for villain to raise us with anything but the top straight.

So we get in 3BB with our set, which is very nice.