89O BOUTTON
 

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

VILAIN is a 20/12/5.5 fold to bb steal 75 about 60hand



Pre-Flop:8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls

Flop: (4.5 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets</font>, Hero calls

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets</font>, Hero calls

River: (5.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Results: 5.25 BB Pot (0.25 BB Rake)
Hero mucked 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a pair of Eights) and LOST (-2.5 BB NET)
BB showed A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a flush, Queen high) and WON 5 BB (+2.5 BB NET)

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

I might of raised flop, but as played it looks ok.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

Turn is close but looks like a fold. That card sucks.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is close but looks like a fold. That card sucks.

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Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

Why wouldnt you raise the flop here ?

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

Don't post results bro. I don't see any benefit in raising the flop. I agree with others that fold the turn.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

Why is everyone so anti-raising the flop? People are donking this flop with a very wide range of hands at 1/2. Raising the flop gives us a great shot to fold out a hand with tons of outs on the turn (overs + gutshot, or in this case overs + FD), or even fold out a better 8.

Villain is a nit, so I like the line: flop raise, bet turn after he checks, intending on folding to a c/r, but expecting him to fold a lot of the time. A turn c/r here is rarely a bluff from this opponent on this board.

Just calling seems like a way to be scared into folding on a ton of turn cards when he can be on SO many draws.

Might be a leak, but I take the lead on this flop and bet almost all turns, folding to a c/r.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

I think a better hand is rarely folding when we raise the flop unless a really bad card for him falls. Folding out a 7 outer on the turn might seem like a good result, but most of the time he'll 3 barrel and we'd rather him do that in a pot of this size. I doubt he'd fold the hand he had when he picks up a FD if we raised the flop.

We're not going to be folding a ton of turn cards, this one is one of the worst ones that could've fell. This is a benefit to calling as we can use better judgement when the turn card falls, having initiative on these types of turns is going to be awkward.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

I like

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the flop gives us a great shot to fold out a hand with tons of outs on the turn (overs + gutshot, or in this case overs + FD), or even fold out a better 8.


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL? Those hands are never folding. Just call and let him barrel of those hands and prevent putting in too many bets when behind.

Stop raising flop donks with marginal hands HU!


Also, anyone who wants to fold the turn. Say to yourself 10 times after me

WHEN DONKS OR UNKNOWNS DONK THE TURN IT IS A DRAW ALMOST ALWAYS. I WILL NEVER FOLD A HAND WITH SD VALUE WHEN PEOPLE TAKE THAT LINE!!

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

I really don't get it, why would I trust I'm behind ?
Vilain had a lot of time air or a draw there, and when I'm Vs TP, I still had plenty of out. I'm not there to calldown in a so small pot...
It could even save me money when I get out of this on a turn c/r, and I also could check the river if no raised for a free showdown.
I really don't understand the calldown here, I will raise everytime a middle pair + gutshot Vs those freaking [censored] donk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

[ QUOTE ]
Vilain had a lot of time air

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If villain has air you dont want to raise and give him a reason to fold. Its much better to let him bluff at the pot.


[ QUOTE ]
or a draw there

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When villain has a draw its best for you to just call if he will fire the river UI. If you raise he will just c/f the river UI.


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and when I'm Vs TP, I still had plenty of out

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Thats true. But you still dont have +50% Eq so you loose money from the extra bets going in.


[ QUOTE ]
I'm not there to calldown in a so small pot...


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When the pot is small you should focus on getting bets in the pot. Whenever you have a marginal hand and you suspect villain is bluffing or semi-bluffing you should not raise. You dont want him to fold those bluffs!


[ QUOTE ]
It could even save me money when I get out of this on a turn c/r,

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That would be really terrible. Dont bloat the pot and then fold on a drawy board. Thats REALLY bad. Also folding the turn here should never ever be an option you consider


[ QUOTE ]
and I also could check the river if no raised for a free showdown.


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That is true. And I think that is the only argument for raising the flop. But thats 1 argumnet vs 100 arguments for calling.


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I really don't understand the calldown here,

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Then, in all respect, you need to work on your game and how you think about it.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

If I can take the pot right now with this kind of hand I will be happy to raise it, it's not like Ive got the nuts.
Or at least I want him to pay for seeing a turn !

[ QUOTE ]
Thats true. But you still dont have +50% Eq so you loose money from the extra bets going in.

[/ QUOTE ]

But his hand is not face up, I don't know he had air :

Vs TP weak kicker : I raise he call, I bet turn and check river, I won a bigbet.

You have to be aggressive to win, Its ok to calldown when the guys shown agrression, but he just donk T86 double heart flop, I want to protect my hand, I raise !

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

I am done arguing. You can read my post again.

Raising this flop is not only a mistake, its a significant mistake.

Playing too aggressive in small pots is one of the most frequent leaks I notice other players have. In particular players who tries to play well but doesnt quite get it.

You say its fine if you win the pot right there. Thats the biggest mistake in your line of reasoning. If he folds a hand it was a hand you wanted him to stay in the pot with.


I dont care if you want to learn or not. But if you like money you should revisit your play in small HU pots.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

Why shouldnt I raise if I think Im ahead ? Why would I calldown if I think Im behind ? At least its a raise for information...Where is the trick in calling down a hand where you dont know anything ?
Moreover, I want to be the guy who is erratic, I dont want them to know I raise TP and calldown the rest,I dont want them to donk me every flop or check raising every turn, maybe I lost a bet here, but I will gain plenty of in the long term run.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

WTF he showed zero strenght, he's BB and called the button then donk this drawy board ! Really dont get it, hope more people will answer this post.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why shouldnt I raise if I think Im ahead ?

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This is what you dont get.

read the posts again and realize that being ahead is not in itself a reason to raise. If you cant see why you should work on how you think about the game. YOU DONT WANT HIM TO FOLD A BLUFF!

[ QUOTE ]
At least its a raise for information...

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SIGH...

raising for info in LHE is overrated and useless. What are you going to do with that info when he c/r'es the turn? Fold?

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

Also when someone has air or draw he can :

1) stop betting every street

2) hit something

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) stop betting every street


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True. But not happening very often


[ QUOTE ]
2) hit something

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If he hits it would be better for you to not raise. Not raising saves money when he sucks out.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

Not raising best hand save money to weak nits who donk every flops.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising best hand save money to weak nits who donk every flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also if he folds a worse hand if you raise but bet again if you call?


Dude. I am done arguing. You refuse to read the arguments or you just dont understand them. Whatever.... Raise the flop and burn money.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

[ QUOTE ]

WHEN DONKS OR UNKNOWNS DONK THE TURN IT IS A DRAW ALMOST ALWAYS. I WILL NEVER FOLD A HAND WITH SD VALUE WHEN PEOPLE TAKE THAT LINE!!

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Disregard. he didnt donk the turn... Turn fold is fine.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

And you really think he's folding here ? He could easy showdown his ace high.
He can also check raise the turn with air, but then it's up to your read on him.

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

so it's a fold turn?
What card do you fold turn??

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

everything oink said about just calling the flop is correct, but id like to talk about the turn. I disagree that a donk is always a draw in the first place, and second, one of the draws got there and we're drawing dead in a small pot if he has it. We're also drawing thin against a lot of hands which he could easily have, like 8 or T with a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: 89O BOUTTON
 

I take passive lines quite a bit. However, in this case, I like a flop raise for value and I'm calling down further action unless the board gets really ugly.