400: What a Sweet Ending
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)
SB: $402.90 BB: $272.60 UTG: $77.90 UTG+1: $363.85 QTip (MP1): $422.00 MP2: $382.00 MP3: $720.05 CO: $321.80 BTN: $901.20 Reads: <font color="blue">villian runs 15/12/1.3 over 162 hands</font> Preflop: QTip is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9 Players) 2 folds, <font color="red">QTip raises to $16.00</font>, 4 folds, SB calls $14.00, BB folds Flop: ($36) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) SB checks, QTip checks Turn: ($36) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">SB bets $24.00</font>, QTip calls $24.00 River: ($84) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players) SB checks, QTip checks Pot Size: $84.00 ($3 Rake) SB had A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a full house, Aces full of Nines) and WON (+$41.00) QTip had K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and LOST (-$40.00) |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
both players played bad?
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
how can you only lose 20bb here?
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
I really like how I played this hand. What would you suggest doing differently?
I don't think he played it well tho. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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I really like how I played this hand. What would you suggest doing differently? I don't think he played it well tho. [/ QUOTE ] being a little results oriented are we? |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
Was there a reason you checked the flop? I bet this flop w/air, so I have to bet it with KK, too. Flat calling the turn with the intention of getting some value on the river seems pretty reasonable to me, and that river is a check because you're not getting called by much that you beat here. I think you get more value by betting the flop (all pairs call you) and you're very rarely beaten, but the other guy played it HORRIBLY, so the way you played it saved your stack.
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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[ QUOTE ] I really like how I played this hand. What would you suggest doing differently? I don't think he played it well tho. [/ QUOTE ] being a little results oriented are we? [/ QUOTE ] No. I don't know why I'm getting one liners here. If someone would suggest another line, let's have it with your reasoning. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
Bet flop? Raise turn? You have no reason to belive you dont have the best hand here...
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I really like how I played this hand. What would you suggest doing differently? I don't think he played it well tho. [/ QUOTE ] being a little results oriented are we? [/ QUOTE ] No. I don't know why I'm getting one liners here. If someone would suggest another line, let's have it with your reasoning. [/ QUOTE ] Not a one liner...I think you think you played it well because you lost less than anyone else would. That was my first instinct when I saw your comment. A better line would be to bet the flop. Therefore you are getting some value from small pair type hands and if you get raised you have to re-evaluate although it will be tough. I am a low limit player so I am used to basic play, but I think you were just trying to get a little too fancy at the same time he was. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
Bet the flop because worse hands will call (or even raise). A 15/12 shouldn't show up with a 9 here (or AA for that matter, wtf?). His AF of 1.3 indicates he'll call with most pairs here. Would you c-bet this flop with air here? If you usually would, then you have to take value here.
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
Posting results in the OP won't help with getting better replies, though.
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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Was there a reason you checked the flop? I bet this flop w/air, so I have to bet it with KK, too. Flat calling the turn with the intention of getting some value on the river seems pretty reasonable to me, and that river is a check because you're not getting called by much that you beat here. I think you get more value by betting the flop (all pairs call you) and you're very rarely beaten, but the other guy played it HORRIBLY, so the way you played it saved your stack. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks for the thoughts Buddha. There are a couple reasons I decided to check the flop. First, I think we get off track a bit by saying that we bet air here, so we need to bet KK. Cuz, there are also times I check AK and so forth here, so I need to check a big hand here as well. I check 44 and 99 blah blah....the logic can roll both ways. Anyway, there are really no cards I hate to see (course, an A aint' cool). I think I can create further action from him with a weaker hand by checking here. Also, I like the idea of pot control by checking this flop. We have an spr of like 11 here. Stacking against him here is certainly -EV. Say I bet $25 on the flop and he c/res. That raise will certainly take me into committment land and threaten my stack with only his $80 raise. Then you have a post entitled "400: KK facing a c/r" don't you? |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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Bet the flop because worse hands will call (or even raise). A 15/12 shouldn't show up with a 9 here (or AA for that matter, wtf?). His AF of 1.3 indicates he'll call with most pairs here. Would you c-bet this flop with air here? If you usually would, then you have to take value here. [/ QUOTE ] I have found a 15/12 player in the 400 game to be quite an active player. An AF over 162 hands is quite meaningless. Actually, I'll check this flop with overs against a player like him on this flop more often than not. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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Bet flop? Raise turn? You have no reason to belive you dont have the best hand here... [/ QUOTE ] Coordi and xrod: You bet $27 on the flop and he cres you to $90. What are you going to do and why? |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
AF does take a while to converge. Still, 15/12/1.whatever is a bit odd. I think this guy suffers from FPS.
If you're checking this flop often with air, then checking with KK sometimes has a purpose. I probably check here like 5%. There aren't many cards which can hurt you here. That said, if he check raises, I would feel very comfortable calling and getting it in on any turn. If he flat calls, I check behind on turn and value bet river (except when the Ace falls and saves my butt). |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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[ QUOTE ] Bet flop? Raise turn? You have no reason to belive you dont have the best hand here... [/ QUOTE ] Coordi and xrod: You bet $27 on the flop and he cres you to $90. What are you going to do and why? [/ QUOTE ] Well at this point we meet that commitment threshold so I am not moving on here unless i have a plan. Its fold or raise here in my opinion. There are a lot of hands here that raise that you have beat. I think our equity in this pot is better than good..I prob raise all in. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
I guess I could sum my flop check up by quoting a couple lines from PNLHE:
1. Good players plan ahead to avoid tough decisions. 2. Avoid being threatened with an all-in when you aren't committed but want to see a show down. How can we allow him to give us a tough decision? How can we allow him to threaten us with an all in? Bet. How can we avoid a tough decision here? How can we avoid being threatened with an all in since we're not committed and want to be at showdown? Check. Does it cost us much to check? Not at all. The value we miss if he called the flop can easily be made up and more by inducing bets from weaker hands. Free cards are almost a mute point here, so we're giving up little there as well. Also, if we bet, we can expect him to make the correct response about 90% of the time. "Bad nl players make things easy on their opponents by making plays to which the expected response is also the correct response. Bad players also don't plan ahead, and they wander into traps set by their opponents." I'm a very active stealer in this game. If I were in the sb against me, I could have plenty of 9s. Also, pps and other hands. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Bet flop? Raise turn? You have no reason to belive you dont have the best hand here... [/ QUOTE ] Coordi and xrod: You bet $27 on the flop and he cres you to $90. What are you going to do and why? [/ QUOTE ] Well at this point we meet that commitment threshold so I am not moving on here unless i have a plan. Its fold or raise here in my opinion. There are a lot of hands here that raise that you have beat. I think our equity in this pot is better than good..I prob raise all in. [/ QUOTE ] I think we need to reevalute the EV of getting all in with a tight player with a combination of an spr of 11 and an overpair on a drawless board. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
Bet flop, fold turn. A 1.3 AF is awfully low, even if it is only 162 hands.
Edit: If you're an active stealer and the SB is played differently at 400, which it seems to be (I wouldn't know) then I'd say NH. I also wonder if I'm willing to pay one bet and want to get to showdown, whether I'm better off betting than calling. It would depend how likely it is that SB will check the turn and river, which seems unlikely. You've decided to slow down because you want to get to showdown. Did you also slow down because you felt you might be beat? Would you have called a river bet? |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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I think we need to reevalute the EV of getting all in with a tight player with a combination of an spr of 11 and an overpair on a drawless board. [/ QUOTE ] I believe it's called bankroll suicide. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Bet flop? Raise turn? You have no reason to belive you dont have the best hand here... [/ QUOTE ] Coordi and xrod: You bet $27 on the flop and he cres you to $90. What are you going to do and why? [/ QUOTE ] Well at this point we meet that commitment threshold so I am not moving on here unless i have a plan. Its fold or raise here in my opinion. There are a lot of hands here that raise that you have beat. I think our equity in this pot is better than good..I prob raise all in. [/ QUOTE ] I think we need to reevalute the EV of getting all in with a tight player with a combination of an spr of 11 and an overpair on a drawless board. [/ QUOTE ] your prob right thats y I play 25NL and you play 400..I get to learn this lesson much cheaper [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
I understand your reasoning, but I'm still betting the flop here just about every time...a 15/12 is showing up with JJ or QQ here a lot more than AA, and you're leaving money on the table. As played, I like turn and river fine.
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
I disagree with this line.
I would bet the flop 100% of the time here. I have to believe I'm ahead and each card that falls after the flop is much more likely to hurt my hand than help it. An ace can (and did) cripple your hand. Once the ace falls, any ace beats you and any action you would have gotten from tt,jj, or qq is gone. If you get check raised on the flop, you'll have to make a decision based on your read and how likely he is to be ahead. Yes, it would be a tough decision, BUT what else do you expect to have happen when a guy slowplays his AA when you raise with KK? This hand is suppose to be an absolute disaster for you. Yes, you lost a very small amount, but only because your opponent misplayed his hand badly. If he hadn't gotten cute and reraised your preflop bet like he should have, you are in some deep s--- and in serious danger of being stacked. This donk slowplayed his aces and cost himself a good chunk of money. I understand what you are saying about pot control and I agree that there is a time for that, but I really don't like it here when the board is paired and you are holding KK. Your kings are vunerable and a 9, while unlikely is possible. Don't get tricky here. Bet the flop and expect to take it down right there most of the time. Your line happened work incredibly well in this instance, but then again, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Here's a good rule of thumb. If are dealt KK and your opponent is dealt AA, if you don't lose a ton, you probably did something wrong. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
d [ QUOTE ]
Your line happened work incredibly well in this instance, but then again, even a broken clock is right twice a day. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with this [ QUOTE ] Here's a good rule of thumb. If are dealt KK and your opponent is dealt AA, if you don't lose a ton, you probably did something wrong. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with this I don't think I would call an all in. I'm probly calling to see how I feel about the turn. I think I fold a large turn bet against a passive player. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
lol qtip you ruined any chance of actual good discussion by posting the results
congrats you dodged a bullet this time |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
lol at this hand...seriously, if you bet $27 and get raised then its such an easy shove that its ridiculous
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
pretty easy bet flop
as played i'd valuebet the river for probably half pot |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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lol at this hand...seriously, if you bet $27 and get raised then its such an easy shove that its ridiculous [/ QUOTE ] Your statement sounds as ridiculous to me as mine must have sounded to you. Please tell me how you get to this flop with 11 times the pot left in your stack with a tight player on a drawless, paired board and say to yourself "I'm happily committed." THAT sounds ridiculous. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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I disagree with this line. I would bet the flop 100% of the time here. I have to believe I'm ahead and each card that falls after the flop is much more likely to hurt my hand than help it. An ace can (and did) cripple your hand. Once the ace falls, any ace beats you and any action you would have gotten from tt,jj, or qq is gone. If you get check raised on the flop, you'll have to make a decision based on your read and how likely he is to be ahead. Yes, it would be a tough decision, BUT what else do you expect to have happen when a guy slowplays his AA when you raise with KK? This hand is suppose to be an absolute disaster for you. Yes, you lost a very small amount, but only because your opponent misplayed his hand badly. If he hadn't gotten cute and reraised your preflop bet like he should have, you are in some deep s--- and in serious danger of being stacked. This donk slowplayed his aces and cost himself a good chunk of money. I understand what you are saying about pot control and I agree that there is a time for that, but I really don't like it here when the board is paired and you are holding KK. Your kings are vunerable and a 9, while unlikely is possible. Don't get tricky here. Bet the flop and expect to take it down right there most of the time. Your line happened work incredibly well in this instance, but then again, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Here's a good rule of thumb. If are dealt KK and your opponent is dealt AA, if you don't lose a ton, you probably did something wrong. [/ QUOTE ] I appreciate you putting your thoughts in here instead of a just a line or two. We need more of that. My kings are hardly vunerable here. If he reraises me on the flop, we have a totally different hand, and I'm likely to be stacked. This is because the spr would be much greater, and I feel much more comfortable getting it in with an spr of 3. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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I guess I could sum my flop check up by quoting a couple lines from PNLHE: 1. Good players plan ahead to avoid tough decisions. 2. Avoid being threatened with an all-in when you aren't committed but want to see a show down. How can we allow him to give us a tough decision? How can we allow him to threaten us with an all in? Bet. How can we avoid a tough decision here? How can we avoid being threatened with an all in since we're not committed and want to be at showdown? Check. Does it cost us much to check? Not at all. The value we miss if he called the flop can easily be made up and more by inducing bets from weaker hands. Free cards are almost a mute point here, so we're giving up little there as well. Also, if we bet, we can expect him to make the correct response about 90% of the time. "Bad nl players make things easy on their opponents by making plays to which the expected response is also the correct response. Bad players also don't plan ahead, and they wander into traps set by their opponents." I'm a very active stealer in this game. If I were in the sb against me, I could have plenty of 9s. Also, pps and other hands. [/ QUOTE ] Anyone have any thoughts on what I laid out here? In my mind, this hand shows the difference between limit thinking and nl thinking on the flop. My hand is good here a very high percentage of the time, but that doesn't mean we bet, like we do in limit every time here. We have to think about planning this hand around commitment. I went golfing this morning and thought a bit more about this hand. And I'm still convinced I played it well - results aside. I'd love to be proven wrong; however, I've not seen any logic spelled out to make me change my mind. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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[ QUOTE ] lol at this hand...seriously, if you bet $27 and get raised then its such an easy shove that its ridiculous [/ QUOTE ] Your statement sounds as ridiculous to me as mine must have sounded to you. Please tell me how you get to this flop with 11 times the pot left in your stack with a tight player on a drawless, paired board and say to yourself "I'm happily committed." THAT sounds ridiculous. [/ QUOTE ] Because tight players usually don't cold call a bet from the blinds with a hand with a 9 in it, but they do cold call TT, JJ. People also love to c/r cbets on paired boards like this w/ any pocket pr. (Edit: I wouldn't shove flop though I would call and shove turn) |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
what donk said. Also, I didn't necessarily mean that I'm shoving flop (although I sometimes would), but rather that I'm not folding it at any point.
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] lol at this hand...seriously, if you bet $27 and get raised then its such an easy shove that its ridiculous [/ QUOTE ] Your statement sounds as ridiculous to me as mine must have sounded to you. Please tell me how you get to this flop with 11 times the pot left in your stack with a tight player on a drawless, paired board and say to yourself "I'm happily committed." THAT sounds ridiculous. [/ QUOTE ] Because tight players usually don't cold call a bet from the blinds with a hand with a 9 in it, but they do cold call TT, JJ. People also love to c/r cbets on paired boards like this w/ any pocket pr. (Edit: I wouldn't shove flop though I would call and shove turn) [/ QUOTE ] Well...if I knew that was the case, then what you're saying makes more sense. However, if an aggressive PF stealer opens from MP, I'm sticking around (at least)in the blinds (actually anywhere) with 89s,T9s and the like. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
I'd look at my pokertracker stats for those hands from the blinds if I were you. I think they are losers.
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
Doing the same thing on this flop 100% of the time with this hand seems like a pretty clear error to me.
This is a board where the turn card is relatively unlikely to change things too much and we rarely have a hand that wants three streets of value so whether we use the flop as one of the streets to invest money or wait until the turn isn't of very great importance. If checking will cause him to misconstrue our range and make mistakes on the next two streets then that can easily outweigh any benefits of betting this flop... protect against a two-outer? pfft. the only way to protect your hand is to make him fold, and we don't want him to fold... getting value from your hand and protecting your hand are mutually exclusive. this is clearly a spot where value far outweighs protection so if he's gonna end up with the best hand at the end, there's nothing we can do about it other than make sure we don't lose more than we should. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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Doing the same thing on this flop 100% of the time with this hand seems like a pretty clear error to me. [/ QUOTE ] Are you replying to my post and saying that bet/calling this flop all the time is an error? |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
I'm replying to everyone and no one.
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Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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I'm replying to everyone and no one. [/ QUOTE ] about any hand and any flop |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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what donk said. Also, I didn't necessarily mean that I'm shoving flop (although I sometimes would), but rather that I'm not folding it at any point. [/ QUOTE ] soah already mentioned that the turn card is most likely to change nothing. So, if we call a raise on the flop, and saying reevalute, we're not looking at his cards, but rather his bet...just a thought to throw out there. |
Re: 400: What a Sweet Ending
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[ QUOTE ] what donk said. Also, I didn't necessarily mean that I'm shoving flop (although I sometimes would), but rather that I'm not folding it at any point. [/ QUOTE ] soah already mentioned that the turn card is most likely to change nothing. So, if we call a raise on the flop, and saying reevalute, we're not looking at his cards, but rather his bet...just a thought to throw out there. [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't be reevaluating and didn't say that. If I just called the flop then I'd be c/r the turn like donk suggested. |
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